* Lobna chat on rape

:PROPERTIES:
:ID: 15f47ead-16c8-4fa3-9f86-597ec556bb43
:CREATED: [2010-08-23 08:49:43]
:CATEGORY: Lobna
:IMPORTED: [2023-02-08 19:22:52-0500]
:MODIFIED: [2011-07-18 09:19:41]
:END:


Lobna chat on rape

[21/08/2010 00:18:41] Lobna Darwish: :)

[10:05:14] Gharbeia: :) :)

[10:06:09] Lobna Darwish: hi

[10:07:38] Lobna Darwish: how are you?

[10:13:44] Gharbeia: I am good. I miss you

[10:13:52] Gharbeia: How are you, beautiful eyes?

[10:14:24] Lobna Darwish: just back from outside and 7 men yelling at me

[10:16:18] Gharbeia: Yelling at you at home?

[10:16:37] Lobna Darwish: at a meeting

[10:16:52] Gharbeia: I see

[10:17:52] Lobna Darwish: i was yellign too tab3an:)

[10:18:33] Gharbeia: But of course

[10:19:54] Lobna Darwish: and nat went crazy when i mentioned in front of everybody what he has been telling everybody for months about us sleeping together

[10:20:57] Gharbeia: انت مصيبة برضع

[10:2100] Gharbeia: برضه

[10:22:10] Lobna Darwish: i was talking about consent and they kept going in cricles so i used us as an example and he went crazy, it's my first time to talk about and he has been with his wife bad mouthing me for months

[10:22:52] Gharbeia: I do not understand the context. Sorry

[10:23:21] Lobna Darwish: we are talking about the rape and violent action that took place in NY and i told you about

[10:23:33] Gharbeia: Oh, that

[10:23:34] Lobna Darwish: and consent is consent :)

[10:24:51] Gharbeia: See? You skipped the most important fact about the discussion: NY incident. Sometime we will install free software inside your head!

[10:25:09] Gharbeia: Speaking of which, I'd like to get your take on this talk

[10:25:46] Gharbeia: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/news/2010/feb/08/audio-and-video-eben-moglens-talk-freedom-cloud-no/

[10:26:23] Gharbeia: Eben Moglen is the lawyer behind PGP, FSF, Asterisk and many other things

[10:27:05] Lobna Darwish: i don't feel like listening to this now

[10:27:48] Gharbeia: When/if you want dear

[10:28:04] Lobna Darwish: and they went crazy when i refused to apologize for the sentence where we said that a guy who rapes will be punished and may not be able to have sex another time

[10:28:39] Lobna Darwish: really deep down most men do not think that rape is that big, specially when it's not a dark ally kind of rape

[10:34:44] Gharbeia: I do not take their stand of course, but I also think your argument is weak and need a bit of work on it

[10:35:20] Lobna Darwish: what argument?

[10:36:16] Lobna Darwish: my argument isn't weak, id on't think it's worth arguing about aslan, a person in power who abuse another person should be resisted in all forms including vioence

[10:36:53] Gharbeia: The argument that we should always believe a woman against a man like we believe a torture victim against a police officer

[10:38:18] Lobna Darwish: i didn't say that, what i'm saying i would always beleive a rape victim against their abuser when the abuser had exhibited previous anti-women actions and he actually talked to other people confesing that he raped her

[10:38:54] Gharbeia: That makes more sense, and a bit more clear now

[10:39:09] Gharbeia: So you ended up having another rundown with Nathan

[10:39:14] Lobna Darwish: nad yes i would beleive any woman accusing a man of raping her, we have no other way, a waoman loses so much when acussing a man of a rape that it doesn't happen if it's not true

[10:39:40] Gharbeia: That's wrong

[10:40:18] Lobna Darwish: and i actually recognize POWER, i beleive the opressed against the opresser, we know how frequent rape is and we know that women do not report it because they have to himuliate themselves and nobody believes them

[10:40:42] Lobna Darwish: just like marital rape, you can never prove it. I CHOOSE to beleive the woman

[10:41:03] Lobna Darwish: and i ethically bare the consequences of my position

[10:42:17] Lobna Darwish: otherwise one is telling men just to rape women as much as they want but just make sure nobody sees them

[10:43:01] Lobna Darwish: Amr i was on a table with 10 strong radical women, 6 of them were raped before in the most classical sense of the word

[10:43:27] Lobna Darwish: wake up, rape is everywhere and nobody says it because of this attitude, they can not prove it

[10:44:28] Gharbeia: Wake up. Your male comrades can be victims for this line of thought. If you are aware of this and are willing to accept it, then make a clear statement

[10:44:55] Lobna Darwish: what do you mean?

[10:45:38] Lobna Darwish: yes i know that my male comarades can be rapists, i try my best to be around men that i respect and trust but it's not easy to know what people realy do

[10:45:44] Gharbeia: I mean if you are consistent, you will have to beat me up if some woman said I raped her, regardless if I did or not

[10:46:01] Gharbeia: REGARDLESS if I did it or not

[10:46:29] Lobna Darwish: it's not automatic, but yes if she said so and i think it's logical i'd beat you

[10:46:43] Lobna Darwish: i would beat you if i think it happened

[10:47:15] Lobna Darwish: and yes my kind of evidence are not "beyoung reasonable doubt" but reasonable doubt of being guilty

[10:47:51] Lobna Darwish: rape happened in bedrooms, and i would prefer beating a man who didn't do it than making more and more women afraid to speak up and victims of rape

[10:48:12] Gharbeia: There is no 'I think' here. You say in this situation a woman's word is always worth more than a man's word, there is no room for 'I think'

[10:48:48] Lobna Darwish: no there is a story

[10:49:02] Lobna Darwish: i choose to act or not based on how convinced i am

[10:49:39] Lobna Darwish: and yes if it's down to a probable story without any evidence and a man and a woman's word, i'll stand by her side

[10:50:16] Lobna Darwish: unfortuantly most men do not film the rape like Islam nabih did with emad el kebir

[10:50:20] Gharbeia: Hmm. What you are saying now empties the previous argument of its meaning. The whole thing does not seem clear enough for me

[10:51:25] Lobna Darwish: it doesn't have to sound clear to anybody but the people who decide to take the action

[10:51:51] Lobna Darwish: i'm not "convincing" anybody, it's just a warning that this how we will deal with rapists

[10:52:08] Gharbeia: I do not mean clarity in the particular case, but the coherence of your argument

[10:53:05] Lobna Darwish: i don't care to make an argument this isn't about convincing men, we even refused to take men in such actions, and till now we didn't need to "convince" one woman that this is the right thing to do, they all know it's right

[10:53:27] Lobna Darwish: this is a statement not an argument, we do not care what men think

[10:54:58] Gharbeia: I am not asking to be convinced. I am just telling you how I see it. I can see more problems coming up, since you are beginning to hint to men-thinking and women-thinking

[10:55:15] Lobna Darwish: what?

[10:55:20] Lobna Darwish: mesh fahma

[10:55:56] Lobna Darwish: i don't think that women and men think differently, i just happen to think that palestinians and Israelis happen to think differently

[10:56:03] Lobna Darwish: it's a position not a nature

[10:58:30] Gharbeia: The discussion is dragging now. To come out with anything useful here, I think we can agree that you do not care what men think or if your comrades will be hurt if your line of thought becomes action

[10:59:11] Lobna Darwish: my line of thought is action and my comarades are being hurt by rape and sexual assault right now

[10:59:54] Lobna Darwish: next time you see a woman in cairo yelling at a man for grabbing her boobs or slapping him, go ask her for a video tape of the young inocent men groppin her

[11:01:15] Gharbeia: That's an incomplete way of presenting it, and it makes no sense to tell me what I already know. This is not where we disagree. I am not sure if this last sentence has any attitude in it, so I will assume it does not

[11:02:59] Lobna Darwish: it's exactly the same, the only difference is that the posibility of someone seeign the man grabbing her boobs is much higher than someone seeing him raping her on a date as his house

[11:04:49] Gharbeia: You are not telling me something I do not know dear. This is not where we disagree. Actually, I am not sure if we disagree because what you said ealier was emptied by what you said later, and there is some attitude in between, so I am not entirely sure what you mean, if you mean one thing in particular

[11:05:19] Lobna Darwish: ok

[11:06:47] Lobna Darwish: i'm just tired of men not thinking twice out of fear, think of those women

[11:09:20] Gharbeia: Yes, I have been assuming that throughout this discussion you have been not happy because somehow you think I am not thinking twice out of fear, which is not what I am doing. I am thinking twice obviously, and I am aware of the status of women, and I am actually interested in developing your argument because it does not hold. You are not interested because your assumption is I am afraid and I cannot be part of a solution because I am a man

[11:10:57] Lobna Darwish: no my position is that i don't care to have an argument, i don't care to see men joining this, and i think a man can be part of the solution, do not rape woman, interevene for woman and give them a safe space to come out

[11:12:11] Gharbeia: And what you do not say to be part of a solution, a man has to accept a broken back if some woman said he raped her, even if he did not

[11:13:41] Lobna Darwish: no, nobody gonna break his back, and yes i think he got enough privelege to pay off a beat up. I can't risk all women living in fear of rape and rape itself and not telling becuse they do not have DNA evidence and we do not have DNA labs

[11:14:40] Gharbeia: So you will beat him nicely out of his ability to have sex, and that's a price of being a comrade

[11:15:06] Lobna Darwish: no that's a price of raping a woman

[11:16:02] Gharbeia: But we are talking here about a man who did not rape a woman

[11:16:34] Lobna Darwish: no we're talking about a man a woman is accusing of raping her

[11:16:48] Gharbeia: But he did not

[11:17:20] Lobna Darwish: we don't know

[11:17:41] Lobna Darwish: let's stop taling about it, it will be a fight

[11:17:54] Lobna Darwish: this is my position and this is yours

[11:19:33] Gharbeia: There are no two conflicting positions here. I am trying to turn your position into something better by asking if there is a way to remove that fraction of men who will end up beaten because some woman said he raped her, while he did not

[11:20:06] Lobna Darwish: no there is no way, other than being god

[11:20:12] Lobna Darwish: and i'm ok with that

[11:20:28] Gharbeia: You are OK with bieng god :)

[11:21:14] Lobna Darwish: no, i'm ok with taking the risk

[11:21:55] Gharbeia: You are not taking any risk. Your comrades are

[11:22:19] Lobna Darwish: no i'm tab3an

[11:23:14] Gharbeia: No you are not. You are taking the ethical risk. That's like going to a war and knowing it will be messy

[11:23:58] Lobna Darwish: yes it will

[11:2500] Gharbeia: Yes, and that's a warrior's dilemma. OK. But this is very different than the people who end up caught in between, especially if they want to be on your side

[11:25:32] Lobna Darwish: if they really want to be on our side they'd understand

[11:25:50] Gharbeia: They'd understand being beaten up?

[11:26:12] Lobna Darwish: yes, if they really want to be on our side

[11:28:40] Gharbeia: This is a bit problematic. I can see the argument making some sense if you are working class and I am middle class. At one point I have will have to make a choice and join the revolution. I can see the relevance if you are Palestinian and I am a Jew born in Israel and have radical politics. I can leave or actually join your ranks with my family. I cannot see this logic with males and females, because there is nothing you or I can do about the fact that we have the sexes we have

[11:29:47] Lobna Darwish: yes and there is nothing you and I can do about you having all the priveleges, it's like being black and being whitew

[11:30:33] Gharbeia: So what I am saying is that the logic is one, but it is a good stretch of the logic when it comes to gender and race

[11:30:56] Lobna Darwish: i don;'t think so

[11:31:10] Lobna Darwish: let's not fight, i fought with 7 friends today

[11:31:39] Gharbeia: I am not saying it is necessarily an over-stretch, just to be clear. I am looking into this with you, not against you

[11:32:57] Gharbeia: So the question is really, what to do of innocent victims from the previliged group when people have no power whatsoever deciding which group they are born into

[11:33:50] Lobna Darwish: yes and they get all the priveleges regarding being feminsit or not

[11:34:01] Lobna Darwish: amr please stop it i cna't fight anymore

[11:34:13] Lobna Darwish: ebough men yelling at me for the day

[11:39:52] Gharbeia: I am not fighting at all Lobna, or yelling at all. Cool-minded discussion. You can stop if you want. To me, there seems to be a difference of choice between class and similar almost solved social issues (old-style slavery for example), and issues like gender and race. Class, gender and race are the main three social problems we are facing now, and we will face two more in the future which are even more complex than gender: children and then animals and living creatures. At present, however, I think we need to work more on the difference between class from one end and race and gender from another.

I am saying this realising how a real-world issue these problems are, so please no flames

[11:41:41] Lobna Darwish: ok i just can't fight with you again about these stuff

[11:41:50] Gharbeia: We are not fighting

[11:42:47] Gharbeia: I see you are not talking. Let's close it here dear

[11:43:34] Lobna Darwish: i'm sorry i'm so tired and feeling abused out of all thus yelling today

[11:44:22] Gharbeia: I am sorry you are tired. Please do not feel abused. What were they saying?

[11:45:23] Lobna Darwish: 5 hours meeting and ltos of shouting mainly towards me and soem nathan hestaria

[11:45:39] Gharbeia: Shouting saying what?

[11:46:24] Lobna Darwish: stuff about the feminist block and the NY incident and about a communique we were writing

[11:46:26] Lobna Darwish: i'm too tired

[11:46:47] Gharbeia: I can see this. You do not want to talk about it

[11:46:52] Gharbeia: Go get rest dear
