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=D9=85=D9=82=D8=A7=D9=84=D8=A9: A history of the state told through the sen=
ses=0A=D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B1=D8=A7=D8=A8=D8=B7: https://khaledfahmy.org/2019/06=
/08/a-history-of-the-state-told-through-the-senses/=0A=D9=83=D9=8F=D8=AA=
=D9=90=D8=A8=D9=8E: 8 =D9=8A=D9=88=D9=86=D9=8A=D9=88=D8=8C 2019 =D8=B9=
=D9=86=D8=AF 2:34 =D9=85=0A=D9=83=D8=A7=D8=AA=D8=A8  : Khaled Fahmy=0A=
=D8=A7=D9=84=D9=88=D8=B3=D9=88=D9=85: Clot Bey, Emad Helal, Hussein Agrama,=
 Mehmed Ali, Qasr al-Aini, Rime Naguib, Rudolph Peters, Sharia, Shehab Isma=
il, Talal Asad, Youssef El Chazli=0A=D8=A7=D9=84=D8=AA=D8=B5=D9=86=D9=8A=
=D9=81=D8=A7=D8=AA: Media appearances=0A=0AThis conversation with Youssef E=
l Chazli was published din Mada Masr ( https://madamasr.com/en/2019/06/07/f=
eature/politics/a-history-of-the-state-told-through-the-senses-a-conversati=
on-with-khaled-fahmy/ )  on 8 June 2019=0A=0AKhaled Fahmy, who holds the Su=
ltan Qaboos bin Said chair in modern Arabic studies at the University of Ca=
mbridge, has worked tirelessly to scrutinize and reevaluate dominant narrat=
ives and historical assumptions about the Egyptian state and its many insti=
tutions. In his first book,=C2=A0All the Pasha=E2=80=99s Men, Fahmy took up=
 the narrative of Mohammed Ali=E2=80=99s construction of modern Egypt, in p=
articular the role the construction of the army played in this trajectory. =
As Amr Ezzat wrote in an article in=C2=A0al-Shorouk=C2=A0in 2013, the book =
was an attempt =E2=80=9Cto read history from below: what happened to people=
 as the state was being established and erected?=E2=80=9D=0A=0AIn Fahmy=
=E2=80=99s latest work,=C2=A0In Quest of Justice: Islamic Law and Forensic =
Medicine in Modern Egypt, published by the University of California Press i=
n 2018, he offers a corporeal history of modernity in Egypt. Focusing on ch=
anges in medicine and law in the 19th century and their mutual impacts, Fah=
my suggests an alternative narrative of the formation of the modern Egyptia=
n state. In particular, Fahmy looks at the uses of=C2=A0shari=E2=80=99a=
=C2=A0(Islamic law) in this historical period, prior to British colonizatio=
n, and the different way it was invoked in the qadi court, which was a core=
 judicial institution in Egypt throughout the Ottoman era. He also looks at=
 what was called=C2=A0magalis al-siyasa,=C2=A0which were legal-cum-administ=
rative councils established in the mid-19th century to adjudicate serious c=
riminal cases as well as commercial and land disputes.=0A=0Ahttps://khaledf=
ahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Cover.jpeg=0A=0AFahmy also looks at the=
 simultaneous evolution of the medical system and the emergence of practice=
s such as autopsies and forensic chemistry, as well as their intimate ties =
to the law and the process of modern state formation. He bases his narrativ=
e on the immense archival material found at the Egyptian National Archives,=
 spotlighting among other things ordinary Egyptians=E2=80=99 responses to t=
hese shifts.=0A=0AThroughout the work, Fahmy engages with many schools of t=
hought, as well as many intellectual and political currents, from post-colo=
nialism and classical historiography on 19th-century Egypt to Islamist narr=
atives about the history of law and popular understanding of the rise of th=
e the modern Egyptian state. Perhaps his central premise and starting point=
 is that an analysis of the transformation of the legal system that focuses=
 solely on intellectual and conceptual shifts is necessarily incomplete. In=
stead, we must go back to the archives and empirical data to see the real c=
hanges that took place in this period, where they came from, what caused th=
em, how they took place, and what reactions they engendered.=0A=0AWe met wi=
th Professor Khaled Fahmy in late June 2018 in his office at the University=
 of Cambridge to talk about his latest book and his methodology as a social=
 historian.=0A=0Ahttps://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/khaled-=
fahmy.jpg Professor Khaled Fahmy in his office in Cambridge=0A=0AYoussef El=
 Chazli: Can you tell us about your=C2=A0new book ( https://www.ucpress.edu=
/book/9780520279032/in-quest-of-justice ) , which you=E2=80=99ve been worki=
ng on for several years? Perhaps you can briefly sketch out its main idea?=
=0A=0AKhaled Fahmy: I don=E2=80=99t think I can, because I=E2=80=99ve worke=
d on it for years=E2=80=A6=0A=0AYC: What was the starting point then?=0A=0A=
KF: Yes, the best way for us to talk about it is to start at the beginning.=
=0A=0AIt started in the archives when I was working on my first book [All t=
he Pasha=E2=80=99s Men], which was about the history of the army. I stumble=
d across a set of documents related to health services in the Pasha=
=E2=80=99s army. These took the form of daily logbooks, and they included a=
 blank form that was printed and distributed to military doctors attached t=
o the field army in Syria during the Egyptian deployment there in the mid-[=
18]30s. I was reading them =E2=80=94 the form was just astonishing =
=E2=80=94 and one caught my eye. It was about sexual diseases, which were r=
eferred to as=C2=A0ferengi, i.e. the Frankish disease. This is how they ref=
erred to syphilis at that time. The army doctor would write how many people=
 were diagnosed with that illness each day and, in another slot, he would i=
nsert the medication. It was astonishing and I became curious. I was primar=
ily interested in these medical reports as they allowed me to get closer to=
 the soldiers =E2=80=94 physically closer, in the literal sense, meaning I =
could see how they were examined, how their bodies was examined by the pier=
cing medical gaze and controlled by the tight medical system. In the end I =
wrote an entire chapter about the topic.=0A=0AYC: In your first book?=0A=0A=
KF: Yes, in=C2=A0All the Pasha=E2=80=99s Men. When I finished my doctoral t=
hesis, I kept working in the National Archives because I found the material=
 there fascinating. I started following up on that topic, on health and med=
icine. At that time, Amira El-Azhary Sonbol published her book,=C2=A0The Cr=
eation of a Medical Profession in Egypt, 1800=E2=80=931922. What I was read=
ing about in the Archives was indeed the creation of the medical profession=
, but there was no relationship whatsoever between that book and the archiv=
al material in front of me. Sonbol=E2=80=99s book relied on the work, writi=
ngs and correspondence of Clot Bey [the French doctor appointed by Mohammed=
 Ali to establish the army=E2=80=99s medical department, and who later foun=
ded the Medical School at Abu Zaabal, which subsequently became Qasr al-Ain=
i Medical School]. By contrast, what I was seeing in the Archives was the e=
veryday functioning of this health department. This department had problems=
, and Clot Bey wrote about some of them and so they=E2=80=99re in that book=
. But for the most part, the Archives offer a wholly different picture, in =
my opinion a more realistic picture, or at least more important for us. Why=
? Because in my mind it offers a more wholesome picture than that offered b=
y Sonbol=E2=80=99s book.=0A=0AYC: Sonbol=E2=80=99s is top down?=0A=0AKF: No=
t only that. She effectively argues that we had an outstanding health admin=
istration until the British came in 1882. The British destroyed this huge a=
chievement. This happened when they started charging fees for education at =
the Qasr al-Aini Medical School and when they changed the language of instr=
uction to English, and so on. She blames colonialism. For me, the question =
is, okay, but before colonization, what were the problems?=0A=0AIn this way=
 I became interested in the history of medicine and public health. I stumbl=
ed across incredible medical material in police records. What I found were =
not isolated reports. Rather, they were reports written by medical doctors =
and embedded within a larger report prepared by the police of investigation=
s they had conducted in particular cases, for example a case of rape or mur=
der. By reading these medical reports, effectively forensic medical reports=
, I understood much about how people were interrogated and what prompted th=
em to go to the police station where they=E2=80=99d be detained and questio=
ned. There material was so rich and it led into many directions, opening up=
 lots of fascinating stories. But I was only interested in the medical aspe=
ct of these cases, and I wondered how I could use this material to do a soc=
ial history of medicine. I mean, we know all about Clot Bey, but I wanted t=
o know what modern medicine meant to people at the time.=0A=0AI found mysel=
f being carried from one thing to another. I was initially interested in me=
dicine and it led me to the police, so I got into the police records and fo=
und these medical reports. The thing that ultimately resulted in the book I=
 wrote is that I was trying to know not only who these doctors were, what k=
ind of medicine they studied and how it was different or new, and what peop=
le=E2=80=99s relationship to it was, but also what these police reports wer=
e in the first place.=0A=0AWhat I found is that the police reports, at the =
end, tell you that they were sent to something called=C2=A0Maglis Misr=
=C2=A0(the=C2=A0Cairo Council). But what was this council? I started to won=
der. I began to read about it and found an entire archival unit called=
=C2=A0al-madhabit al-sadira, that is, minutes of legal cases. Then I came a=
cross something called=C2=A0Maglis Isti=E2=80=99naf, (the Appeals Council) =
and something else called=C2=A0Maglis al-Ahkam=C2=A0(the Council of Judicia=
l Ordinances). Each report summarizes the facts of the case, but the summar=
y is long, maybe four or five pages, in contrast to the records from the sh=
ari=E2=80=99a courts, which are brief and formulaic. In fact, what I stumbl=
ed across is a collection of records that can help me piece together an ent=
ire legal case from beginning to end. It starts with police inquiry, then m=
oves through the investigations and interrogations, and in the end you get =
a whole narrative that even ends with a punchline, so to speak, with a lega=
l sentence. This sentence is then sent to the Appeals Council, which looks =
into the case, and then it forwards the case to the Council of Judicial Ord=
inances where the sentence is either ratified or revised.=0A=0ASo there=
=E2=80=99s a sequence and a hierarchical progression. And there are referen=
ces to laws. They may say, =E2=80=9CBased on Article 3 of Chapter 5 of the =
Law.=E2=80=9D It turns out that this law was the Humayauni Code, which was =
an Ottoman criminal law that had originally been issued by the sultan in 18=
50 and two years later it was applied in Egypt after certain amendments rel=
ated to who has the right to issue death sentences. These amendments were t=
he result of lengthy diplomatic negotiations between Cairo and Istanbul rev=
olving around questions of sovereignty. Anyway, this is the law they are ta=
lking about. I started studying it and was intrigued by how the councils ap=
plied it.=0A=0AIn short, what I discovered was the archives of an entire le=
gal system, not only the records of a medical system. There are only two pe=
ople who have worked on this legal system. The first is Emad Helal of Suez =
Canal University, a very respectable professor and colleague who has been w=
orking on these same cases for a long time. The second is a highly respecte=
d professor of Islamic studies at the University of Amsterdam, Ruud Peters.=
 They have done incredible work. I see my work as building on theirs and en=
gaging with it.=0A=0ABasically, what I discovered was the archives of a ver=
y evolved legal system that is only little understood. It is referred to as=
 the=C2=A0siyasa=C2=A0system. Siyasa here does not mean politics, but it me=
ans the fiqhi concept of=C2=A0al-siyasa al-shar=E2=80=99iya, meaning legisl=
ation that complements the fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence) and which was consi=
dered part of shari=E2=80=99a.=0A=0AAnd so, I started writing several schol=
arly articles to make sense of what I was finding in the archives. One was =
about the police, another about autopsies, a third about the school for mid=
wives, and a fourth about how people received and reacted to modern medicin=
e. There was little analysis in these articles. I was simply trying to gath=
er my thoughts on these particular subjects knowing, at the back of my mind=
, that something linked them together. But what exactly? It still wasn=
=E2=80=99t clear. Every year I=E2=80=99d go to the National Archives and fi=
nd more cases. After a while, I found that the cases started to repeat them=
selves. The questions had become similar, and I started to find common patt=
erns. This is what we historians often refer to as the law of diminishing r=
eturns. And it usually means that the time of archival research is over and=
 the time for serious analysis has come.=0A=0AI also understood some practi=
ces, for example, that murder cases were investigated in a certain way. I s=
tarted to understand the relationship between the first-instance council an=
d the appeals council.=0A=0AThen something caught my attention: While an in=
vestigation in one of these cases was underway, the same case also came bef=
ore the shari=E2=80=99a court. So I started to wonder about the relationshi=
p to the shari=E2=80=99a courts. This is a complex system, so why hasn=
=E2=80=99t it been written about before? The questions I started with were =
about people=E2=80=99s relationship to modern medicine. Then the subject br=
ought me to questions about the relationship this legal system had with sha=
ri=E2=80=99a, the relationship between law and medicine, people=E2=80=99s =
=E2=80=94 meaning ordinary Egyptians=E2=80=99 =E2=80=94 engagement with the=
se practices, as well as what all these new practices gave rise to. The res=
ult of this whole process, I thought, was this thing we call =E2=80=9Cthe s=
tate=E2=80=9D. The medical establishment, the process of census taking, the=
 creation of a police administration and the development of the judicial ad=
ministration =E2=80=94 all of this, and much else, is what we refer to when=
 we use the term =E2=80=9Cthe modern state=E2=80=9D. I already knew this. I=
 mean, I knew there was no such thing as =E2=80=9CMohammed Ali and his stat=
e-building project.=E2=80=9D Yes, Mohammed Ali had a project, but it was no=
t a state-building one. The state arose by trial and error =E2=80=94 or rat=
her this thing we call the state, which is not really a thing, but a set of=
 practices and relationships =E2=80=94 was the result of these practices th=
at I was chasing in the Archives.=0A=0Ahttps://i0.wp.com/khaledfahmy.org/wp=
-content/uploads/2019/06/divorce-document.jpg?fit=3D1024%2C575&ssl=3D1 A do=
cument relating the case of a dispute between a woman named Tawazzur and he=
r husband, al-Hajj Abdel Dayem, accusing him of =E2=80=9Cassaulting her and=
 beating her with a weight on her left forearm, breaking the bone, and dema=
nding reparations.=E2=80=9D After hearing the case, the shar=E2=80=99i judg=
e disciplined the husband =E2=80=9Cwith shar=E2=80=99i disciplinary practic=
es after examining the arm of the claimant mentioned above by the sheikh Sh=
ihab al-Din al-Damanhuri, sheikh of the corporation of the surgeons in Alex=
andria, who informed that the claimant=E2=80=99s arm was broken=E2=80=9D, f=
rom the documents of the court of Jami=E2=80=99 al-Hakim, dated 5 February =
1610, or 12 Dhu=E2=80=99l Qi=E2=80=99dah 1018.=0A=0AFirstly, I could follow=
 these councils and how they evolved. I found the decrees appointing admini=
strators to these councils =E2=80=94 and bit by bit the picture started to =
become clearer. I also have the records of police investigations, which con=
tain references to people=E2=80=99s reactions. And I have many more details=
 about the councils: where they were located, how they were advertised thei=
r presence to the public, who was appointed to serve and their salaries, an=
d even how they were furnished. Secondly, I followed the physicians and the=
ir duties in public clinics as well as in police stations where they worked=
 as forensic doctors. Thirdly, of course is the voluminous correspondence o=
f Mohammed Ali and that of his descendants. I have so much correspondence t=
hat is extremely precise and detailed, tens of thousands of letters and pie=
ces of correspondence. Of course, after working a while, something happens =
to you. It=E2=80=99s like you=E2=80=99ve lived with these people and so you=
 start to understand the dominant spirit. So I started to form lots of ques=
tions and I started to ask myself how it all fit together.=0A=0ASo my new b=
ook is about all that. Specifically it is about this dominant spirit, or th=
e common denominator of all these things, which is dissection and forensic =
medicine. That=E2=80=99s the common thread. Why? Because when you think abo=
ut it, dissection brings together medicine, law, the body, and the people.=
=0A=0AOf course, examining of the dead has been around for a long time in t=
he form of external examinations. Determinations of the cause of death exis=
ted from the early 1850s. No one was buried without something called a buri=
al certificate (tadhkarat dafn). These were issued by the forensic doctor, =
who was referred to as hakim al-siyasa. This hakim would issue a burial cer=
tificate at the behest of the neighborhood sheikh. The family of the deceas=
ed would go to that sheikh and tell him that so-and-so died. The sheikh inf=
orms the health office, which then sends someone, maybe not the doctor hims=
elf. It might send his assistant or a nurse. If the nurse suspects somethin=
g or finds some problem, he sends for a doctor or a hakima, that is female =
doctor if the deceased is a woman. The doctor comes and writes the report a=
nd this is registered in the health office=E2=80=99s monthly logs, which ar=
e the basis on which the national census is updated. Every office in every =
neighborhood has monthly logs in which they state the deceased person=
=E2=80=99s name, cause of death, any medication they were taking, their age=
 and heirs =E2=80=94 here=E2=80=99s where the shari=E2=80=99a comes in. All=
 of that is also recorded on the burial certificate, which is taken to the =
undertaker who records it in his own registry. And then at the end of every=
 month, the records are cross-checked for inconsistencies. I came across a =
murder case, which was discovered when they found a discrepancy between the=
 monthly records of the undertaker and the monthly records of the health of=
fice. When the health office records were examined, they found a name that =
had been =E2=80=9Csqueezed=E2=80=9D (mahshur) between two names, a clear in=
dication of tampering with the registers and of adding the name of the dece=
ased after that particular month=E2=80=99s records had been tallied. When t=
he burial certificate was cross-checked, it stated that the man had died of=
 diarrhea when he had actually been murdered.=0A=0Ahttps://i1.wp.com/khaled=
fahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/other-old-paper.jpg?fit=3D1024%2C498&s=
sl=3D1 Two documents from the same period showing how death acquired a new =
social meaning. The document on the right, dated 1850 (1266 on the Islamic =
calendar), shows how families from al-Darb al-Ahmar, after the death of a w=
oman named =E2=80=98Aisha Bint Musa al-Dib, were interested in identifying =
her possessions in order to be able to divide the estate in a proper legal =
(shar=E2=80=99i) manner. On the other hand, the document on the left, dated=
 1851 (1267), highlights how death has become one of the concerns of public=
 health authorities, and how the doctor of tumn al-Khalifa (a Cairo neighbo=
rhood) had to specify the causes of death on a daily basis, including typhu=
s, diarrhea, and severe infection.=0A=0AIn cases where the external post-mo=
rtem examination were not conclusive, then the body would be sent to Qasr a=
l-Aini for an autopsy. The medical professors would convene something calle=
d an =E2=80=9Cautopsy assembly=E2=80=9D and write a detailed report.=0A=0AY=
.C.: So there is a very fine level of detail=E2=80=A6=0A=0AK.F.: Very fine.=
 And there is faith in this thing called medicine, that it can resolve thes=
e cases. The question I then had to ask was how these reports were used leg=
ally. That meant I had to know about the legal system.=0A=0AI formed anothe=
r question: how is the medicine as used in shari=E2=80=99a courts different=
 from that used in the legal councils? In the end, it=E2=80=99s all a matte=
r of what is meant by proof. In Islamic jurisprudence there is something ca=
lled=C2=A0bayyina=C2=A0(shar=E2=80=99i evidence), and a medical report is n=
ot considered evidence in this sense.=C2=A0Bayyina=C2=A0is either an eyewit=
ness account or a confession by the defendant. In other words, it is a verb=
al act, and a medical report is not a verbal act, but a written one. So the=
 topic started moving in this direction and came to be centered on the idea=
 of autopsy and forensic medicine.=0A=0AI started thinking about how to for=
mulate this, all the questions related to the history of medicine, social h=
istory, and the medical dimension, but also shari=E2=80=99a, statecraft, an=
d the relationship of statecraft and historiography. Why hadn=E2=80=99t thi=
s been written about? Why has it been obscured? This isn=E2=80=99t about on=
e or two incidents, a couple of cases or a few documents. I=E2=80=99m talki=
ng about millions of cases, documents and records.=0A=0AY.C.: These things =
are all there in the National Archives, right? You didn=E2=80=99t find them=
 in other archives?=0A=0AK.F.: No, all in Egypt. How come the current Egypt=
ian legal system knows nothing about this, about its own history?=0A=0AY.C.=
: So I guess it is not taught in the history of law in law schools today?=
=0A=0AK.F.: No. I once took a senior law professor from Alexandria Universi=
ty, Burham Atallah, to the National Archives, and when he saw these records=
, he told me, =E2=80=98This is astonishing!=E2=80=99 First of all, he said,=
 we are not in command of language the way these people were. Secondly, he =
said that these records show a complex system in action. He said he needed =
to study it further. This senior professor recognized that there was someth=
ing astonishing about this system. In the introduction of my book, I explai=
n why this 19th-century history hasn=E2=80=99t been written about. I tried =
to identify exactly which books had obscured it, not on purpose, but becaus=
e there had been a blind spot that made some scholars view law as administr=
ation rather than law.=0A=0AI started to see that I had to tie these differ=
ent threads together. Okay, how do I do that?=0A=0AFirst, I wanted to write=
 the story in a way that would make the body the main unit of analysis, bec=
ause I=E2=80=99m talking about the human body and conflict over the body. I=
 have an article titled =E2=80=9CWho Owns the Body?=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=
=99s the question, the crux of the matter. Does the body belong to God and =
we=E2=80=99re just trustees over it? Or does it belong to the person who li=
ves inside it? After death, does it belong to the family or society? And ho=
w do you care for it and dignify it with a burial? Or does it belong to the=
 state which lays a peculiar claim over it?=0A=0AAnd so I decided I=
=E2=80=99d write five chapters corresponding to the five senses, in the con=
ventional order in which they appear in both the Western and Islamic medica=
l textual traditions: starting with sight, then sound, smell =E2=80=94 an a=
mbivalent sense, that one =E2=80=94 taste, and finally touch.=0A=0AEach sen=
se has its own chapter. Each chapter not only tells part of the story, but =
also narrates or presents a particular argument. The chapter about sight, f=
or example, is about autopsy, which literally means to see for oneself in l=
atin. The Arabic word has other connotations related to speech or explicati=
on, but there are also terms in Arabic, such as=C2=A0sharh al-sadr, meaning=
 to rupture, that are also related to sight, if only in an indirect manner.=
 Anyway, the first chapter is about this procedure, how it was done, and th=
e reaction to it.=0A=0Ahttps://i2.wp.com/khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads=
/2019/06/illustration-1-rescaled.png?fit=3D1024%2C628&ssl=3D1 Illustration =
by Rime Naguib=0A=0ASound is interesting. It isn=E2=80=99t completely obvio=
us, but it=E2=80=99s fundamental to the law. The conventional way of narrat=
ing the development of law in Egypt is as a process of secularization: we h=
ad a religious system and then we came to have a positive law system. This =
is the common story for both Islamists and non-Islamists, and in my opinion=
, it=E2=80=99s not accurate. Perhaps it=E2=80=99s better to characterize th=
e development of the legal system as a shift from one that relied on the sp=
oken word in the shari=E2=80=99a courts to one that relied on the written w=
ords in the legal councils. This shift reflects a profound epistemological =
difference in the understanding of the law, the concepts of evidence and pr=
oof, and ultimately even more basic things: the concept of personhood and j=
ustice. That=E2=80=99s the second chapter.=0A=0AThe third chapter is about =
smell. This is actually less about medicine than about public health. There=
 are numerous records that talk about noxious odors not simply as something=
 distasteful, but as dangerous. The idea was that disease spread through fo=
ul air, which is befouled by miasma that ultimately emanate from decomposin=
g bodies that give off humors. One finds the origins of this idea in both t=
he Galenic and the Avicennian lore, namely, that the human body is composed=
 of four bodily humors: blood, yellow bile, black bile and phlegm.=0A=0AThi=
s idea had a hugely important impact on the reconstruction of Cairo in the =
19th century. The story is not, as it is popularly known in Egypt, that Khe=
dive Ismail went to Paris and there fell in love with Eugenie [de Montijo, =
Empress of France, and wife of Napoleon III] blah, blah, blah, and then cam=
e back and decided he wanted to build a Paris along the Nile. No. Rather, h=
e and Ali Mubarak [an important 19th century reformer] went to Paris after =
it was redesigned by Haussmann and Mubarak describes how he had to see for =
himself what the enterprising pr=C3=A9fet de la Seine had done to Paris. On=
ce in Paris, he actually went down into the sewers. This is a critical visi=
t in=C2=A0Al-Khitat al-Tawfiqiya=C2=A0where Mubarak describes his visit to =
Paris. He had studied there, then he came back twenty years later and found=
 the city transformed, and the most significant aspect of this transformati=
on was that when he went down to the sewers he didn=E2=80=99t detect any fo=
ul smell. They would take princes and kings down to the sewers to show them=
 that they had tamed nature to serve them and it no longer constituted a so=
urce of danger. That=E2=80=99s why he launched a campaign against ponds and=
 swamps. As=C2=A0Shehab Ismail ( https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/doi/1=
0.7916/D8Z611FD ) =C2=A0[a historian who received his doctorate from Columb=
ia University in New York and worked on the history of sanitation in Cairo]=
 showed, in the end, the Khalig was drained. This was an important artery i=
n the life of Cairenes, which bisected the city from north to south. So the=
 Khalig was filled in because it had become a source of danger. It later be=
came the path of the first tramway in Cairo in the late 19th century.=0A=0A=
https://i0.wp.com/khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/laughing-skull=
.jpg?fit=3D768%2C1024&ssl=3D1 Illustration by Rime Naguib=0A=0ALet me move =
to =C2=A0the fifth chapter next, which is about touch. This chapter is abou=
t torture. I was trying to explain, after a discussion of the legal and med=
ical systems, why torture was abolished at a certain point in judicial hist=
ory, specifically, in 1861. What was the role of torture in the legal syste=
m? It wasn=E2=80=99t some secret practice; it was public but suddenly it wa=
s abolished. Why? I examined the law, and found a decree explicitly called =
the =E2=80=9CDecree of replacing flogging with incarceration.=E2=80=9D I ke=
pt noting how Foucauldian this was, with the prisons and autopsy. Prisons s=
upplanted torture as a means of punishment, and autopsy replaced flogging a=
s a means of obtaining confession and establishing proof. There was no long=
er any need for torture.=0A=0AThe fourth chapter took me two years to write=
. I thought it would be about taste and forensic chemistry, related to the =
murder cases I mentioned, or cases of suspicious death by poisoning or drug=
ging. The source of the chapter was a series of police cases that involved =
the use of datura, a drug that came from a plant of the same name. So there=
 were gangs that ambush people coming to Cairo and they=E2=80=99d give them=
 dates or bread adulterated with datura, which would drug them so they coul=
d then rob them. The police would find the victim on the road still drugged=
 three days later, and sometimes they would find the victims already dead. =
It=E2=80=99s an extremely potent drug and the victims would be incapable of=
 remembering what happened to them or who gave them the adulterated dates o=
r bread. So the police were working to arrest this gang, but a big part of =
the investigation was the discovery of datura itself.=0A=0AI found out that=
 there was a whole administration known as the Chemical-Pharmaceutical Lab.=
 This was in Qasr al-Aini and overseen by a French doctor, Gastinel. It=
=E2=80=99s obvious the Chemical-Pharmaceutical Lab was renowned, as it rece=
ived a mention in=C2=A0Baedeker=E2=80=99s travel guide ( https://archive.or=
g/details/egypthand00karl/page/244 ) .=0A=0AThe most important thing is the=
 reports those doctors write, not only in criminal cases, but also on suspe=
cted food samples, particularly coffee and bread, they had collected from t=
he market and then sent to the police. Someone claims that certain bread or=
 coffee is adulterated, so the police go to investigate the coffeehouse or =
the bakery and they send seized samples to the chemical lab for analysis. T=
he lab writes a report saying they found chickpeas or ground hazelnut shell=
s, or, worse, insects in the examined sample and would add that this is haz=
ardous to the health. I found these reports and I told myself that I can wr=
ite a chapter on taste using this.=0A=0AWhen I was writing the chapter, I w=
rote a short introduction, just three pages, trying to explain the differen=
ce between this system of market regulation using chemistry (examination of=
 milk, water, bread, coffee, etc.) =E2=80=94 in addition to the datura issu=
e, the criminal dimension, and the importance of the chemical lab in tracki=
ng these things =E2=80=94 and the previous regulatory system of=C2=A0hisba.=
 Why? Because I read a book by al-Shayzari, who was well known in the 12th =
century. He has a very famous book on=C2=A0hisba,=C2=A0Nihayat al Rutba fi =
Talab al-Hisba, one of the most important books on the topic because it=
=E2=80=99s less a work of jurisprudence than a guide for the=C2=A0muhtasib,=
 the inspector, on how to discover the various types of deception and fraud=
 used with different foods. Social historians even use the book as a source=
 for food history because it contains recipes. It tells you how they would =
sell fake figs, for example, or that when they mix goat with beef, they do =
it in such-and-such way, and watch out when the fish looks this or that. In=
 the introduction, I was trying to say that the=C2=A0hisba=C2=A0system ulti=
mately depended on the constant presence of the=C2=A0muhtasib=C2=A0and that=
 the overriding concern was a moral one about fraud or deception. In contra=
st, the overriding concern in the 19th century was health: there was some s=
ource of danger, and they didn=E2=80=99t talk much about morals.=0A=0Ahttps=
://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/mada-batwing.jpg Illustration=
 by Rime Naguib=0A=0AI started reading about the history of=C2=A0hisba, the=
 history of the market inspector, which led me to Talal Asad [an anthropolo=
gist and an important theorist of religion and secularism who had an enormo=
us influence on postcolonial and Middle Eastern studies] and his students. =
One of those is Hussein Agrama, who has=C2=A0a wonderful book ( https://www=
.press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/Q/bo13590023.html ) =C2=A0about =
the Egyptian legal system, with a chapter on=C2=A0hisba, but with the inspe=
ctor as a moral rather than market inspector. In classical Islamic jurispru=
dence, the=C2=A0muhtasib=C2=A0did both, that is, he inspected both the mark=
et transactions, for example, weights and measures, as well as public behav=
iors, for example, the mixing of the sexes in the thoroughfare. But in cont=
emporary popular Egyptian imagination,=C2=A0hisba=C2=A0immediately calls to=
 mind the issue of freedom of expression because of the case of scholar Nas=
r Abu Zeid who was declared an apostate in the early 1990s for his work on =
Quranic hermeneutics. It=E2=80=99s a sprawling, complex system, and I decid=
ed to grapple with it, trying to explain how the chemistry-based market reg=
ulatory system =E2=80=94 with its different philosophy, epistemological his=
tory, and mechanisms =E2=80=94 differs from the=C2=A0hisba=C2=A0system as e=
xpounded by someone like al-Shayzari, or others before him who looked at it=
 from a more juristic dimension.=0A=0ABut why was I determined to include t=
his? First, the so-called Islamic State (ISIS) had a diwan of=C2=A0hisba, i=
n fact one of the earliest departments they established. Hussein Agrama wri=
tes about=C2=A0hisba, so does Talal Asad. Wael Hallaq [professor of law and=
 Islamic intellectual history at Columbia University] writes about the shar=
i=E2=80=99a and=C2=A0hisba=C2=A0specifically. I look at the history of=
=C2=A0hisba=C2=A0in Egypt in the Mamluk and Ottoman periods, and then under=
 Mohammed Ali, and then comes the moment when the office of the=C2=A0muhtas=
ibis abolished, just like flogging was. Because there was an alternative =
=E2=80=94 there was something new to rely on to achieve the same purpose.=
=0A=0ASo this is not about secularization. It=E2=80=99s closely tied to the=
 separation of morals from public law, but in my opinion, this chapter offe=
rs a more accurate and deeper analysis than a focus on the legal elite or E=
gyptian politicians=E2=80=99 betrayal of their inherited belief system, whi=
ch is the conventional view. As Foucault taught us, this separation of mora=
ls and law is arbitrary and violent, but how precisely did it happen? And w=
hy? This is what we need to know. This chapter was one of the hardest for m=
e, but the most interesting, if I can say that, or at least the most exciti=
ng.=0A=0AI don=E2=80=99t have a clear conclusion for the book. You asked me=
 what the main idea was and I can=E2=80=99t tell you. I can tell you who I =
was engaging with: I was engaging Talal Asad and his students, Egyptian Isl=
amists and their view of the modernization of the Egyptian state, and tradi=
tional historians, particularly historians of medicine and the Egyptian sta=
te and their narrative of the emergence of these institutions and how they =
were created. I was also engaging with people who work on the history of tr=
anslation and their explanation of how translation arose in Egypt, as well =
as postcolonial historians who don=E2=80=99t hesitate to describe the medic=
al system as a colonial one. I=E2=80=99m asking what=E2=80=99s colonial abo=
ut colonial medicine and refute the idea that the medicine of Clot Bey in E=
gypt =E2=80=94 even though he was French =E2=80=94 was colonial.=0A=0Ahttps=
://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/clot-bey.jpg Clot Bey=0A=0AY.=
C.: This is an excellent response, because you=E2=80=99ve also begun to ans=
wer three other questions I had. I=E2=80=99ll list them so we can also clar=
ify these three points. In this book, in contrast to=C2=A0All the Pasha=
=E2=80=99s Men, in which you talked more about the statist discourse about =
the Egyptian state, here you=E2=80=99re also engaging with the Islamist dis=
course about the law. About how, as you just said, the legal elite ostensib=
ly abandoned its heritage and turned toward European positive law and so on=
. So you=E2=80=99re grappling with this point and this discourse.=0A=0ATher=
e=E2=80=99s another point of engagement I wanted to ask about as well: the =
conversation with postcolonial historians. Was there some desire with this =
book to propose a different way of talking about the legacy of the 19th cen=
tury? What I mean is that postcolonial studies, which has given so much to =
the humanities, has maybe also shut down some discussions and oversimplifie=
d them, in its way of asking some questions and its dominance at some Ameri=
can universities. Perhaps all this made you want to highlight some new poin=
ts? Of course, I=E2=80=99m not saying that you=E2=80=99re defending the col=
onial legacy, but that maybe we should look at this period differently.=0A=
=0AWhen you were talking about the book, you used a certain word several ti=
mes: astonishing. I=E2=80=99m not sure quite how to describe this, but I fe=
el that there=E2=80=99s a sort of awe at these institutions, the experiment=
s we had in the 19th century, when you talk about forensic medicine or the =
quality of translation. Many people when they see this might say, yes, this=
 is very modern, this was a golden and lost age, and so I wonder if there i=
s a little bit of nostalgia for the institutions formed at this moment. I t=
hink you show that they are not purely colonial or imported institutions, a=
nd that it=E2=80=99s more complicated than that.=0A=0AThis astonishment at =
experiences that took place in a certain moment and did not happen by desig=
n. Do you feel you=E2=80=99re a bit impressed by the 19th century or instit=
utions at that time? I imagine you do not have this very statist, moderniza=
tion outlook, that the modern state is something nice. But at times do you =
think about this and say: we can look at today and say that yes, there has =
been some deterioration of a heritage =E2=80=94 not necessarily a religious=
 or doctrinal heritage or legacy, but that the state heritage, the heritage=
 of institutions has declined? That=E2=80=99s a bit of a different question=
.=0A=0AK.F.: These are important questions. I think the first two are relat=
ed, and the response is what you said: it=E2=80=99s about empirical data. T=
he third question regarding being impressed is actually related to what you=
 said about our distress at our present circumstances. Let me take each in =
turn.=0A=0AFirst of all, I found myself wondering why postcolonial studies =
and Islamists in Egypt seem to agree when it comes to dismissing history. T=
hey have foregone conclusions without having done the work, but the work ha=
s to be done first. Of course, one is a bit embarrassed to say this, or afr=
aid one=E2=80=99 might be called an empiricist. First you must respect the =
data =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s the first thing =E2=80=94 and then we can dis=
agree about interpretations. But the thing we=E2=80=99re talking about, don=
=E2=80=99t come at me with theories. Let me explain.=0A=0ARegarding the Isl=
amists, I=E2=80=99m troubled by their disregard of the=C2=A0history=C2=
=A0of shari=E2=80=99a. Al-Sayyid Sabiq, Tareq al-Bishri and Abd al-Qader Ou=
da all wrote extremely important books about many things, partly about the =
history of the law and shari=E2=80=99a. It=E2=80=99s there that they didn=
=E2=80=99t do the work, even Tareq al-Bishri, whom I consider an extremely =
important historian of Egypt.=0A=0AEven until the 1980s or 1990s, the Islam=
ists said they had it all codified and waiting =E2=80=94 famously, that =
=E2=80=9Cthe shari=E2=80=99a is in the top drawer.=E2=80=9D They said they =
had codified it but that there was no political will to put these codified =
legislation into action. When it came to presenting a historical argument, =
they don=E2=80=99t tire of repeating that we had this shari=E2=80=99a and t=
hen the West came in with different forms and replaced it with its own laws=
.. This is just polemic first of all, we don=E2=80=99t know this for a fact=
. Of course, al-Bishri doesn=E2=80=99t only cite this fact, he talks about =
Ottoman regulations and about Qadri Pasha, but the basic idea is that the d=
espotic West came and forced us to abandon our heritage, or, as they say, o=
ur=C2=A0turath. Al-Sayyid Sabiq in his multi-volume work has only three pag=
es about the history of jurisprudence. Why? Because he wants us to forget a=
bout it and he=E2=80=99ll tell us what it is: it=E2=80=99s the jurisprudenc=
e of the Sunna. Forget about all those schools of thought, the=C2=A0madhahi=
b, he tells us. The Brotherhood salafi view is that there=E2=80=99s no need=
 to get into such debates, it divides us; instead we should strive to find =
what unites us. They=E2=80=99ll tell us what we need to know about food, ma=
rriage, divorce, and so on. Fine, that=E2=80=99s political, a political int=
ervention for a particular purpose, but the history of jurisprudence is a l=
ong one that can=E2=80=99t be abridged like that, as if Islamic law and jur=
isprudence have no history.=0A=0AAbd al-Qader Ouda states this more explici=
tly in his influential book where he compares Islamic criminal law to posit=
ive law. He says, don=E2=80=99t tell me that Western criminal law evolved a=
nd the shari=E2=80=99a is rigid. What are you talking about? he asks. The s=
hari=E2=80=99a was born complete, sublime, and comprehensive. It wasn=
=E2=80=99t born lacking anything so that it later evolved. No, it=E2=80=
=99s this divine thing, so we can=E2=80=99t say that it was born incomplete=
 and later developed. Development suggests it was lacking or somehow flawed=
 and we rectified it. For him, it=E2=80=99s a complete, comprehensive, subl=
ime system.=0A=0AY.C.: So it needs no history.=0A=0AK.F.: It doesn=E2=80=
=99t need a history and it doesn=E2=80=99t have one. Of course, we historia=
ns who work on the history of shari=E2=80=99a in the Ottoman period see dif=
ferent historical practices evolving. So this neglect or disregard of histo=
ry is also impressive, but in a negative sense. Why is my work important in=
 this area =E2=80=94 my work and that of Emad Helal, Ruud Peters, and other=
 researchers? We expose a different narrative, that it=E2=80=99s not about =
the coming of the West. The question I ask is: this shari=E2=80=99a we had,=
 what was it? It becomes clear that someone like Tareq al-Bishri and others=
 who want to apply the shari=E2=80=99a now, don=E2=80=99t know how it used =
to be applied.=0A=0AY.C.: They haven=E2=80=99t asked themselves the questio=
n.=0A=0AK.F.: They haven=E2=80=99t asked how it was practiced. We had shari=
=E2=80=99a courts, fine. How did they operate? Yes, there is revealed law (=
shar=E2=80=99), but there is also man-made law (qanun), which is issued by =
the sultan. It is supplementary to Islamic jurisprudence and the shari=
=E2=80=99a courts. It is true that the judge in the shari=E2=80=99a courts =
does not apply the qanun issued by the sultan, he applies revealed law. But=
 there is a parallel judicial body in Egypt in the 18th century known as al=
-Diwan al-=E2=80=98Ali, the office of the governor of Egypt, the Ottoman su=
ltan=E2=80=99s viceroy. According to=C2=A0James Baldwin ( https://edinburgh=
universitypress.com/book-islamic-law-and-empire-in-ottoman-cairo.html ) =
=C2=A0who teaches Islamic law at Royal Holloway, University of London, this=
 office actually adjudicates cases. The same cases heard by judges in the s=
hari=E2=80=99a courts can be heard by that office. This is before the West,=
 before Napoleon. This isn=E2=80=99t a hybrid or imported system, or a secu=
lar system. It=E2=80=99s an Islamic system =E2=80=94 not only Islamic, but =
a shari=E2=80=99a-based system, because the [man-made] law is part of the e=
ntirety of revealed law (shar=E2=80=99).=0A=0Ahttps://madamasr.com/wp-conte=
nt/uploads/2019/06/sharia-graphic.jpg The official coat of arms of the Otto=
man sultanate in the late 19th century. Note that shari=E2=80=99a, the lega=
l basis for rights and justice, is represented by two books: a green book, =
which is fiqh, and a red book, which is siyasa.=0A=0ASo what=E2=80=99s the =
problem? The problem is that Islamists and many other people believe that s=
hari=E2=80=99a =E2=80=94 is nothing but=C2=A0fiqh, that is jurisprudence. T=
hey think that the intellectual product that we refer to as jurisprudence=
=C2=A0is=C2=A0the shari=E2=80=99a. But the shari=E2=80=99a, in my opinion, =
includes jurisprudence as well as=C2=A0qada=E2=80=99, that is, judgeship,=
=C2=A0fatwa, that is, unbinding legal opinion,=C2=A0waqf, that is pious end=
owments, etc. But in addition, shari=E2=80=99a also includes the laws refer=
red to as statecraft or state administration (siyasa). This is why Ibn Taym=
iya called it=C2=A0al-siyasa al-shar=E2=80=99iya.=C2=A0This statecraft is p=
art of shari=E2=80=99a, and that was the understanding of shari=E2=80=99a a=
t that time. If you want to tell me how that system disappeared, fine, let=
=E2=80=99s study that. Let=E2=80=99s see the details of what happened to th=
at system that no longer exists. I absolutely do not deny that there was in=
tervention by the West in the form of colonialism, imperialism, and the inh=
erent racism in them, and that a big part of that was a clear legal system.=
 But let=E2=80=99s talk more granularly, do the work that hasn=E2=80=99t be=
en done, so that we can understand how this shift occurred. I think my book=
 is a contribution here.=0A=0AAs for the second question, about being impre=
ssed by state practices. Of course, as I=E2=80=99m sitting in the National =
Archives, I=E2=80=99m dealing with state employees. I have interacted with =
them for over twenty years. I have interacted with them at the entrance of =
the actual building of the Archives, in the Reading Room, in the cafeteria,=
 in the stacks, and of course, I have also interacted with many of director=
s who found themselves appointed there. It is interesting to note, that wit=
h important exceptions, some of these directors had no idea what the Nation=
al Archives is. So I sit and observe. At the same time, I read in the same =
building these impressive state records from 150 or 200 years ago, and I ca=
nnot help but make comparisons, and notice differences. And the differences=
 are obviously not in our favor. The deterioration that Egypt witnessed is =
impressive. It=E2=80=99s not that I reach this conclusion after visiting th=
e British Library or the British National Archives at Kew. It is not by com=
paring our current state to the mighty British Empire that I realize how ba=
ckward we are. It is by comparing our state now with how we started our nah=
da 200 hundred years ago that I find the deterioration impressive.=0A=0AWhe=
n I told you before that after a while you hit the rule of diminishing retu=
rns and start to find things repeating themselves =E2=80=94 it is then that=
 you detect a certain spirit, a geist, if you like. The spirit or feeling t=
hat I got after reading thousands and thousands of 19th century documents w=
as confidence =E2=80=94 self-confidence and confidence in this administrati=
on that was being carefully built. Not necessarily because it managed to fi=
nd solutions to every problem the country faced, but because it had a mecha=
nism of solving things, and a certain pride and self-respect in what they w=
ere doing. These administrators may be Europeans. Or Turks. Or Armenians. O=
r Levantines. But I consider them all Egyptians, meaning they are all worki=
ng for an administration that is Egyptian. And they have a palpable sense o=
f pride and self-respect. This pride is no more. It doesn=E2=80=99t exist a=
ny more. No Egyptian bureaucrat now has the same positive self-image his or=
 her forebears had, and it=E2=80=99s sad. So it=E2=80=99s also this sadness=
 that stems from realizing that we had this state and then it was lost, or =
we lost it. Am I being uncritically impressed by 19th century state-buildin=
g processes, by this geist? I don=E2=80=99t think so. Because the whole tim=
e, I ask myself what was lacking, or what was wrong about this impressive s=
ystem. The system is impressive because, if we take law as an example, the =
Archives allow me to follow a case from the very initial stage to the end b=
ecause of the notational remarks the scribes back then inserted literally i=
n the margins of the case. I tell my students to go the National Archives a=
nd think like a scribe. If you work like a historian, you won=E2=80=99t be =
able to engage with the material. You should go in and let them =E2=80=
=94 the people you=E2=80=99re reading =E2=80=94 take you along with them. A=
nd if you let go, if you allow these 19th century scribes to guide you thro=
ugh their work, you will be truly impressed.=C2=A0=0A=0ASo yes, this is an =
impressive thing, but what was lacking? I ask that question all the time. T=
here was something missing. I=E2=80=99ve said for a long time that I think =
this state has a dazzling, though oppressive discourse. At the end of the d=
ay, this state was serving itself not the public. So when I read in this st=
ate=E2=80=99s own documents about people who figured out the state=E2=80=
=99s discourse and understood how it functioned, and when I see them succee=
ding in using state mechanisms to their own benefit =E2=80=94 not through p=
etitions and supplications, but through making demands, like asking for aut=
opsies as a way to establish legal proof =E2=80=94 it gives me hope that th=
is leviathan has some constraints after all, and that this state can be man=
ipulated to serve us and give us our rights, though ultimately it is design=
ed to serve itself.=0A=0AOf course, this contrasts with a widespread view a=
bout statecraft and justice, a view informed by a certain Islamic discourse=
 of statecraft, of subjects (not citizens) who have to be protected and tak=
en care of. I believe Mohammed Ali often thought of himself in these terms,=
 that he was entrusted with subjects whose wellbeing =E2=80=94 their lives,=
 their property, their honour =E2=80=94 has to be protected. He thought of =
himself along these lines, as a Muslim prince, if you may. But how exactly =
can he protect his subjects and uphold justice? At the core of his concern =
was how to stop the abuse of power. How to make sure that his own agents do=
 not oppress the subject. This is where petitions come in, because this was=
 a way of exposing abuse of power by the Pasha=E2=80=99s agents. In the end=
, they replaced this with the councils. The purpose of these legal councils=
, in my opinion, was not to bring justice, but to control the Pasha=
=E2=80=99s agents, that is, the ruling class. But that=E2=80=99s another ar=
gument. I=E2=80=99m just mentioning this to say that I was not uncritically=
 impressed by this state. I am always thinking of its internal contradictio=
ns.=C2=A0=0A=0AY.C.: I think you made this argument about Mohammed Ali=
=E2=80=99s early tenure. Yes, there were perhaps impressive things accompli=
shed, but was it inevitable that they be done in this way? Was it possible =
for it to be impressive without thousands of people dying?=0A=0AK.F.: And t=
hese are first and foremost political questions, and these are the question=
s I=E2=80=99m trying to get people to ask. To ask this political question, =
even now. Fine, you want stability, and that=E2=80=99s important, but must =
it come at the expense of killing a thousand people in Rab=E2=80=99a? Is th=
is the only way? If it is, what=E2=80=99s the cost and who pays it? These a=
re all political questions. For that reason they=E2=80=99re difficult and s=
ensitive, and people don=E2=80=99t want to ask them, because you find yours=
elf asking not only political questions, but ethical ones as well.=0A=0AY.C=
.: Thank you for your time and your discussion of the book.=0A=0A=D8=A5=
=D8=B6=D8=A7=D9=81=D8=A9 =D8=AA=D8=B9=D9=84=D9=8A=D9=82 =D9=84=D9=87=D8=
=B0=D9=87 =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=AA=D8=AF=D9=88=D9=8A=D9=86=D8=A9: https://khaledf=
ahmy.org/2019/06/08/a-history-of-the-state-told-through-the-senses/#respond=
=0A=0A-- =0A=0A=0A=D8=A5=D8=AF=D8=A7=D8=B1=D8=A9 =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=A7=D8=
=B4=D8=AA=D8=B1=D8=A7=D9=83=D8=A7=D8=AA=0Ahttps://subscribe.wordpress.com/?=
key=3D7aa346598bc64408dd44144440e5ff87&email=3Damr.gharbeia%40gmail.com=0A=
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yle=3D"display:none !important">=0A=09=09=09=09Khaled Fahmy =D9=86=D8=B4=
=D8=B1: "=0AThis conversation with Youssef El Chazli was published din Mada=
 Masr on 8 June 2019=0A=0A=0A=0AKhaled Fahmy, who holds the Sultan Qaboos b=
in Said chair in modern Arabic studies at the University of Cambridge, has =
worked tirelessly to scrutinize and reevaluate do"=09=09=09</span>=0A=09=09=
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=09=09=09=09=09=D9=85=D9=82=D8=A7=D9=84=D8=A9 =D8=AC=D8=AF=D9=8A=D8=AF=
=D8=A9 =D8=B9=D9=84=D9=89 <strong>Khaled Fahmy =D8=AE=D8=A7=D9=84=D8=AF =
=D9=81=D9=87=D9=85=D9=8A</strong>=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09</h=
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important; white-space: nowrap; vertical-align: top;">=0A=09=09=09=09=09=09=
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09<a href=3D"https://khaledfahmy.or=
g/?author=3D2" style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2; display=
: block; margin-right: 10px;"><img border=3D"0" alt=3D"" src=3D"http://0.gr=
avatar.com/avatar/f300a18ddf15dcdace0a50212df5864c?s=3D50&amp;d=3Dhttp%3A%2=
F%2F0.gravatar.com%2Favatar%2Fad516503a11cd5ca435acc9bb6523536%3Fs%3D50&amp=
;r=3DG" class=3D"avatar avatar-50" height=3D"50" width=3D"50"></a>=0A=09=09=
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09</td>=0A=09=09=09=09=09=
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09<td>=0A=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09<h2 class=3D"post-title" style=3D"margi=
n: .4em 0 .3em; font-size: 1.8em; font-size: 1.6em; color: #555; margin: 0;=
 font-size: 20px;"><a href=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/2019/06/08/a-history-=
of-the-state-told-through-the-senses/" style=3D"text-decoration: underline;=
 color: #2585B2; text-decoration: none !important;">A history of the state =
told through the=C2=A0senses</a></h2>=0A=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09<span style=3D"color: #888;">=D8=A8=D9=88=D8=
=A7=D8=B3=D8=B7=D8=A9 <a href=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/?author=3D2" style=
=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2; color: #888 !important;">Kh=
aled Fahmy</a> </span>=0A=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=
=09=09=09</td>=0A=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09</tr=
></table><div class=3D"post-content" style=3D"direction: rtl; margin-top: 1=
em; max-width: 560px;">=0A=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09<p style=3D'direct=
ion: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "H=
elvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>This conver=
sation with Youssef El Chazli was published din <em><a style=3D"text-decora=
tion: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=3D"https://madamasr.com/en/2019/06/0=
7/feature/politics/a-history-of-the-state-told-through-the-senses-a-convers=
ation-with-khaled-fahmy/" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer noopener" ari=
a-label=3D"Mada Masr (opens in a new tab)">Mada Masr</a></em> on 8 June 201=
9</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; co=
lor: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; mar=
gin: 0 0 1em;'>Khaled Fahmy, who holds the Sultan Qaboos bin Said chair in =
modern Arabic studies at the University of Cambridge, has worked tirelessly=
 to scrutinize and reevaluate dominant narratives and historical assumption=
s about the Egyptian state and its many institutions. In his first book,=
=C2=A0<em>All the Pasha=E2=80=99s Men</em>, Fahmy took up the narrative of =
Mohammed Ali=E2=80=99s construction of modern Egypt, in particular the role=
 the construction of the army played in this trajectory. As Amr Ezzat wrote=
 in an article in=C2=A0<em>al-Shorouk</em>=C2=A0in 2013, the book was an at=
tempt =E2=80=9Cto read history from below: what happened to people as the s=
tate was being established and erected?=E2=80=9D</p>=0A<p style=3D'directio=
n: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Hel=
vetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>In Fahmy=
=E2=80=99s latest work,=C2=A0<em>In Quest of Justice: Islamic Law and Foren=
sic Medicine in Modern Egypt</em>, published by the University of Californi=
a Press in 2018, he offers a corporeal history of modernity in Egypt. Focus=
ing on changes in medicine and law in the 19th century and their mutual imp=
acts, Fahmy suggests an alternative narrative of the formation of the moder=
n Egyptian state. In particular, Fahmy looks at the uses of=C2=A0<em>shari=
=E2=80=99a</em>=C2=A0(Islamic law) in this historical period, prior to Brit=
ish colonization, and the different way it was invoked in the qadi court, w=
hich was a core judicial institution in Egypt throughout the Ottoman era. H=
e also looks at what was called=C2=A0<em>magalis al-siyasa</em><em>,=C2=
=A0</em>which were legal-cum-administrative councils established in the mid=
-19th century to adjudicate serious criminal cases as well as commercial an=
d land disputes.</p>=0A<div style=3D"direction: rtl;" class=3D"wp-block-ima=
ge">=0A<figure class=3D"aligncenter"><img border=3D"0" style=3D"max-width: =
100%; height: auto; margin-bottom: 12px;" data-attachment-id=3D"4060" data-=
permalink=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/writings/cover/" data-orig-file=3D"htt=
p://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Cover.jpeg" data-orig-size=
=3D"632,933" data-comments-opened=3D"1" data-image-meta=3D'{"aperture":"0",=
"credit":"","camera":"","caption":"","created_timestamp":"0","copyright":""=
,"focal_length":"0","iso":"0","shutter_speed":"0","title":"","orientation":=
"0"}' data-image-title=3D"Cover" data-image-description=3D"" data-medium-fi=
le=3D"http://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Cover.jpeg?w=3D203"=
 data-large-file=3D"http://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Cover=
.jpeg?w=3D632" src=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/Co=
ver.jpeg" alt=3D"" class=3D"wp-image-4060"></figure></div>=0A<p style=3D'di=
rection: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family=
: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>Fahmy a=
lso looks at the simultaneous evolution of the medical system and the emerg=
ence of practices such as autopsies and forensic chemistry, as well as thei=
r intimate ties to the law and the process of modern state formation. He ba=
ses his narrative on the immense archival material found at the Egyptian Na=
tional Archives, spotlighting among other things ordinary Egyptians=
=E2=80=99 responses to these shifts.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font=
-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue"=
, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>Throughout the work, Fahm=
y engages with many schools of thought, as well as many intellectual and po=
litical currents, from post-colonialism and classical historiography on 19t=
h-century Egypt to Islamist narratives about the history of law and popular=
 understanding of the rise of the the modern Egyptian state. Perhaps his ce=
ntral premise and starting point is that an analysis of the transformation =
of the legal system that focuses solely on intellectual and conceptual shif=
ts is necessarily incomplete. Instead, we must go back to the archives and =
empirical data to see the real changes that took place in this period, wher=
e they came from, what caused them, how they took place, and what reactions=
 they engendered.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-h=
eight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,=
 sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>We met with Professor Khaled Fahmy in late J=
une 2018 in his office at the University of Cambridge to talk about his lat=
est book and his methodology as a social historian.</p>=0A<div style=3D"dir=
ection: rtl;" class=3D"wp-block-image">=0A<figure class=3D"aligncenter"><im=
g border=3D"0" style=3D"max-width: 100%; height: auto; margin-bottom: 12px;=
" data-attachment-id=3D"4321" data-permalink=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/201=
9/06/08/a-history-of-the-state-told-through-the-senses/khaled-fahmy/" data-=
orig-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/khaled-fahm=
y.jpg" data-orig-size=3D"333,298" data-comments-opened=3D"1" data-image-met=
a=3D'{"aperture":"0","credit":"","camera":"","caption":"","created_timestam=
p":"0","copyright":"","focal_length":"0","iso":"0","shutter_speed":"0","tit=
le":"","orientation":"1"}' data-image-title=3D"khaled-fahmy" data-image-des=
cription=3D"" data-medium-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/upload=
s/2019/06/khaled-fahmy.jpg?w=3D300" data-large-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.=
org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/khaled-fahmy.jpg?w=3D333" src=3D"https://kha=
ledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/khaled-fahmy.jpg" alt=3D"" class=3D=
"wp-image-4321"><figcaption>Professor Khaled Fahmy in his office in Cambrid=
ge</figcaption></figure></div>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14p=
x; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>Youssef El Chazli</strong>:=
 Can you tell us about your=C2=A0<a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; co=
lor: #2585B2;" href=3D"https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520279032/in-quest-=
of-justice" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer noopener">new book</a>, whi=
ch you=E2=80=99ve been working on for several years? Perhaps you can briefl=
y sketch out its main idea?</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14=
px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helveti=
ca, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>Khaled Fahmy</strong>: I d=
on=E2=80=99t think I can, because I=E2=80=99ve worked on it for years=
=E2=80=A6</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1=
.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-se=
rif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>YC</strong>: What was the starting point the=
n?</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; c=
olor: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; ma=
rgin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>KF</strong>: Yes, the best way for us to talk about=
 it is to start at the beginning.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-si=
ze: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", H=
elvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>It started in the archives w=
hen I was working on my first book [<em>All the Pasha=E2=80=99s Men</em>], =
which was about the history of the army. I stumbled across a set of documen=
ts related to health services in the Pasha=E2=80=99s army. These took the f=
orm of daily logbooks, and they included a blank form that was printed and =
distributed to military doctors attached to the field army in Syria during =
the Egyptian deployment there in the mid-[18]30s. I was reading them =
=E2=80=94 the form was just astonishing =E2=80=94 and one caught my eye. It=
 was about sexual diseases, which were referred to as=C2=A0<em>ferengi</em>=
, i.e. the Frankish disease. This is how they referred to syphilis at that =
time. The army doctor would write how many people were diagnosed with that =
illness each day and, in another slot, he would insert the medication. It w=
as astonishing and I became curious. I was primarily interested in these me=
dical reports as they allowed me to get closer to the soldiers =E2=80=94 ph=
ysically closer, in the literal sense, meaning I could see how they were ex=
amined, how their bodies was examined by the piercing medical gaze and cont=
rolled by the tight medical system. In the end I wrote an entire chapter ab=
out the topic.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-heig=
ht: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sa=
ns-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>YC</strong>: In your first book?</p>=0A=
<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #44=
4; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0=
 1em;'><strong>KF</strong>: Yes, in=C2=A0<em>All the Pasha=E2=80=99s Men</e=
m>. When I finished my doctoral thesis, I kept working in the National Arch=
ives because I found the material there fascinating. I started following up=
 on that topic, on health and medicine. At that time, Amira El-Azhary Sonbo=
l published her book,=C2=A0<em>The Creation of a Medical Profession in Egyp=
t, 1800=E2=80=931922</em>. What I was reading about in the Archives was ind=
eed the creation of the medical profession, but there was no relationship w=
hatsoever between that book and the archival material in front of me. Sonbo=
l=E2=80=99s book relied on the work, writings and correspondence of Clot Be=
y [the French doctor appointed by Mohammed Ali to establish the army=
=E2=80=99s medical department, and who later founded the Medical School at =
Abu Zaabal, which subsequently became Qasr al-Aini Medical School]. By cont=
rast, what I was seeing in the Archives was the everyday functioning of thi=
s health department. This department had problems, and Clot Bey wrote about=
 some of them and so they=E2=80=99re in that book. But for the most part, t=
he Archives offer a wholly different picture, in my opinion a more realisti=
c picture, or at least more important for us. Why? Because in my mind it of=
fers a more wholesome picture than that offered by Sonbol=E2=80=99s book.</=
p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color=
: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin=
: 0 0 1em;'><strong>YC</strong>: Sonbol=E2=80=99s is top down?</p>=0A<p sty=
le=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; fon=
t-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'=
><strong>KF</strong>: Not only that. She effectively argues that we had an =
outstanding health administration until the British came in 1882. The Briti=
sh destroyed this huge achievement. This happened when they started chargin=
g fees for education at the Qasr al-Aini Medical School and when they chang=
ed the language of instruction to English, and so on. She blames colonialis=
m. For me, the question is, okay, but before colonization, what were the pr=
oblems?</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4=
em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-seri=
f; margin: 0 0 1em;'>In this way I became interested in the history of medi=
cine and public health. I stumbled across incredible medical material in po=
lice records. What I found were not isolated reports. Rather, they were rep=
orts written by medical doctors and embedded within a larger report prepare=
d by the police of investigations they had conducted in particular cases, f=
or example a case of rape or murder. By reading these medical reports, effe=
ctively forensic medical reports, I understood much about how people were i=
nterrogated and what prompted them to go to the police station where they=
=E2=80=99d be detained and questioned. There material was so rich and it le=
d into many directions, opening up lots of fascinating stories. But I was o=
nly interested in the medical aspect of these cases, and I wondered how I c=
ould use this material to do a social history of medicine. I mean, we know =
all about Clot Bey, but I wanted to know what modern medicine meant to peop=
le at the time.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-hei=
ght: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>I found myself being carried from one thing to=
 another. I was initially interested in medicine and it led me to the polic=
e, so I got into the police records and found these medical reports. The th=
ing that ultimately resulted in the book I wrote is that I was trying to kn=
ow not only who these doctors were, what kind of medicine they studied and =
how it was different or new, and what people=E2=80=99s relationship to it w=
as, but also what these police reports were in the first place.</p>=0A<p st=
yle=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; fo=
nt-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;=
'>What I found is that the police reports, at the end, tell you that they w=
ere sent to something called=C2=A0<em>Maglis Misr=C2=A0</em>(the=C2=A0Cairo=
 Council). But what was this council? I started to wonder. I began to read =
about it and found an entire archival unit called=C2=A0<em>al-madhabit al-s=
adira</em>, that is, minutes of legal cases. Then I came across something c=
alled=C2=A0<em>Maglis Isti=E2=80=99naf</em>, (the Appeals Council) and some=
thing else called=C2=A0<em>Maglis al-Ahkam=C2=A0</em>(the Council of Judici=
al Ordinances). Each report summarizes the facts of the case, but the summa=
ry is long, maybe four or five pages, in contrast to the records from the s=
hari=E2=80=99a courts, which are brief and formulaic. In fact, what I stumb=
led across is a collection of records that can help me piece together an en=
tire legal case from beginning to end. It starts with police inquiry, then =
moves through the investigations and interrogations, and in the end you get=
 a whole narrative that even ends with a punchline, so to speak, with a leg=
al sentence. This sentence is then sent to the Appeals Council, which looks=
 into the case, and then it forwards the case to the Council of Judicial Or=
dinances where the sentence is either ratified or revised.</p>=0A<p style=
=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-=
family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>S=
o there=E2=80=99s a sequence and a hierarchical progression. And there are =
references to laws. They may say, =E2=80=9CBased on Article 3 of Chapter 5 =
of the Law.=E2=80=9D It turns out that this law was the Humayauni Code, whi=
ch was an Ottoman criminal law that had originally been issued by the sulta=
n in 1850 and two years later it was applied in Egypt after certain amendme=
nts related to who has the right to issue death sentences. These amendments=
 were the result of lengthy diplomatic negotiations between Cairo and Istan=
bul revolving around questions of sovereignty. Anyway, this is the law they=
 are talking about. I started studying it and was intrigued by how the coun=
cils applied it.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>In short, what I discovered was the archives =
of an entire legal system, not only the records of a medical system. There =
are only two people who have worked on this legal system. The first is Emad=
 Helal of Suez Canal University, a very respectable professor and colleague=
 who has been working on these same cases for a long time. The second is a =
highly respected professor of Islamic studies at the University of Amsterda=
m, Ruud Peters. They have done incredible work. I see my work as building o=
n theirs and engaging with it.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size:=
 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helv=
etica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>Basically, what I discovered wa=
s the archives of a very evolved legal system that is only little understoo=
d. It is referred to as the=C2=A0<em>siyasa</em>=C2=A0system. Siyasa here d=
oes not mean politics, but it means the fiqhi concept of=C2=A0<em>al-siyasa=
 al-shar=E2=80=99iya</em>, meaning legislation that complements the fiqh (I=
slamic jurisprudence) and which was considered part of shari=E2=80=99a.</p>=
=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: =
#444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: =
0 0 1em;'>And so, I started writing several scholarly articles to make sens=
e of what I was finding in the archives. One was about the police, another =
about autopsies, a third about the school for midwives, and a fourth about =
how people received and reacted to modern medicine. There was little analys=
is in these articles. I was simply trying to gather my thoughts on these pa=
rticular subjects knowing, at the back of my mind, that something linked th=
em together. But what exactly? It still wasn=E2=80=99t clear. Every year I=
=E2=80=99d go to the National Archives and find more cases. After a while, =
I found that the cases started to repeat themselves. The questions had beco=
me similar, and I started to find common patterns. This is what we historia=
ns often refer to as the law of diminishing returns. And it usually means t=
hat the time of archival research is over and the time for serious analysis=
 has come.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: =
1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-s=
erif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>I also understood some practices, for example, that=
 murder cases were investigated in a certain way. I started to understand t=
he relationship between the first-instance council and the appeals council.=
</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; col=
or: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; marg=
in: 0 0 1em;'>Then something caught my attention: While an investigation in=
 one of these cases was underway, the same case also came before the shari=
=E2=80=99a court. So I started to wonder about the relationship to the shar=
i=E2=80=99a courts. This is a complex system, so why hasn=E2=80=99t it been=
 written about before? The questions I started with were about people=
=E2=80=99s relationship to modern medicine. Then the subject brought me to =
questions about the relationship this legal system had with shari=E2=80=
=99a, the relationship between law and medicine, people=E2=80=99s =E2=80=
=94 meaning ordinary Egyptians=E2=80=99 =E2=80=94 engagement with these pra=
ctices, as well as what all these new practices gave rise to. The result of=
 this whole process, I thought, was this thing we call =E2=80=9Cthe state=
=E2=80=9D. The medical establishment, the process of census taking, the cre=
ation of a police administration and the development of the judicial admini=
stration =E2=80=94 all of this, and much else, is what we refer to when we =
use the term =E2=80=9Cthe modern state=E2=80=9D. I already knew this. I mea=
n, I knew there was no such thing as =E2=80=9CMohammed Ali and his state-bu=
ilding project.=E2=80=9D Yes, Mohammed Ali had a project, but it was not a =
state-building one. The state arose by trial and error =E2=80=94 or rather =
this thing we call the state, which is not really a thing, but a set of pra=
ctices and relationships =E2=80=94 was the result of these practices that I=
 was chasing in the Archives.</p>=0A<figure class=3D"wp-block-image"><img b=
order=3D"0" style=3D"max-width: 100%; height: auto; margin-bottom: 12px;" d=
ata-attachment-id=3D"4322" data-permalink=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/2019/0=
6/08/a-history-of-the-state-told-through-the-senses/divorce-document/" data=
-orig-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/divorce-do=
cument.jpg" data-orig-size=3D"1600,899" data-comments-opened=3D"1" data-ima=
ge-meta=3D'{"aperture":"0","credit":"","camera":"","caption":"","created_ti=
mestamp":"0","copyright":"","focal_length":"0","iso":"0","shutter_speed":"0=
","title":"","orientation":"0"}' data-image-title=3D"divorce-document" data=
-image-description=3D"" data-medium-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-cont=
ent/uploads/2019/06/divorce-document.jpg?w=3D300" data-large-file=3D"https:=
//khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/divorce-document.jpg?w=3D676" =
src=3D"https://i0.wp.com/khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/divorce=
-document.jpg?fit=3D1024%2C575&amp;ssl=3D1" alt=3D"" class=3D"wp-image-4322=
"><figcaption>A document relating the case of a dispute between a woman nam=
ed Tawazzur and her husband, al-Hajj Abdel Dayem, accusing him of =E2=80=
=9Cassaulting her and beating her with a weight on her left forearm, breaki=
ng the bone, and demanding reparations.=E2=80=9D After hearing the case, th=
e shar=E2=80=99i judge disciplined the husband =E2=80=9Cwith shar=E2=80=
=99i disciplinary practices after examining the arm of the claimant mention=
ed above by the sheikh Shihab al-Din al-Damanhuri, sheikh of the corporatio=
n of the surgeons in Alexandria, who informed that the claimant=E2=80=99s a=
rm was broken=E2=80=9D, from the documents of the court of Jami=E2=80=99 al=
-Hakim, dated 5 February 1610, or 12 Dhu=E2=80=99l Qi=E2=80=99dah 1018.</fi=
gcaption></figure><p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height:=
 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-=
serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>Firstly, I could follow these councils and how the=
y evolved. I found the decrees appointing administrators to these councils =
=E2=80=94 and bit by bit the picture started to become clearer. I also have=
 the records of police investigations, which contain references to people=
=E2=80=99s reactions. And I have many more details about the councils: wher=
e they were located, how they were advertised their presence to the public,=
 who was appointed to serve and their salaries, and even how they were furn=
ished. Secondly, I followed the physicians and their duties in public clini=
cs as well as in police stations where they worked as forensic doctors. Thi=
rdly, of course is the voluminous correspondence of Mohammed Ali and that o=
f his descendants. I have so much correspondence that is extremely precise =
and detailed, tens of thousands of letters and pieces of correspondence. Of=
 course, after working a while, something happens to you. It=E2=80=99s like=
 you=E2=80=99ve lived with these people and so you start to understand the =
dominant spirit. So I started to form lots of questions and I started to as=
k myself how it all fit together.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-si=
ze: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", H=
elvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>So my new book is about all =
that. Specifically it is about this dominant spirit, or the common denomina=
tor of all these things, which is dissection and forensic medicine. That=
=E2=80=99s the common thread. Why? Because when you think about it, dissect=
ion brings together medicine, law, the body, and the people.</p>=0A<p style=
=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-=
family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>O=
f course, examining of the dead has been around for a long time in the form=
 of external examinations. Determinations of the cause of death existed fro=
m the early 1850s. No one was buried without something called a burial cert=
ificate (<em>tadhkarat dafn</em>). These were issued by the forensic doctor=
, who was referred to as hakim al-siyasa. This hakim would issue a burial c=
ertificate at the behest of the neighborhood sheikh. The family of the dece=
ased would go to that sheikh and tell him that so-and-so died. The sheikh i=
nforms the health office, which then sends someone, maybe not the doctor hi=
mself. It might send his assistant or a nurse. If the nurse suspects someth=
ing or finds some problem, he sends for a doctor or a hakima, that is femal=
e doctor if the deceased is a woman. The doctor comes and writes the report=
 and this is registered in the health office=E2=80=99s monthly logs, which =
are the basis on which the national census is updated. Every office in ever=
y neighborhood has monthly logs in which they state the deceased person=
=E2=80=99s name, cause of death, any medication they were taking, their age=
 and heirs =E2=80=94 here=E2=80=99s where the shari=E2=80=99a comes in. All=
 of that is also recorded on the burial certificate, which is taken to the =
undertaker who records it in his own registry. And then at the end of every=
 month, the records are cross-checked for inconsistencies. I came across a =
murder case, which was discovered when they found a discrepancy between the=
 monthly records of the undertaker and the monthly records of the health of=
fice. When the health office records were examined, they found a name that =
had been =E2=80=9Csqueezed=E2=80=9D (<em>mahshur</em>) between two names, a=
 clear indication of tampering with the registers and of adding the name of=
 the deceased after that particular month=E2=80=99s records had been tallie=
d. When the burial certificate was cross-checked, it stated that the man ha=
d died of diarrhea when he had actually been murdered.</p>=0A<figure class=
=3D"wp-block-image"><img border=3D"0" style=3D"max-width: 100%; height: aut=
o; margin-bottom: 12px;" data-attachment-id=3D"4323" data-permalink=3D"http=
s://khaledfahmy.org/2019/06/08/a-history-of-the-state-told-through-the-sens=
es/other-old-paper/" data-orig-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/u=
ploads/2019/06/other-old-paper.jpg" data-orig-size=3D"1480,720" data-commen=
ts-opened=3D"1" data-image-meta=3D'{"aperture":"0","credit":"","camera":"",=
"caption":"","created_timestamp":"0","copyright":"","focal_length":"0","iso=
":"0","shutter_speed":"0","title":"","orientation":"0"}' data-image-title=
=3D"other-old-paper" data-image-description=3D"" data-medium-file=3D"https:=
//khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/other-old-paper.jpg?w=3D300" d=
ata-large-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/other-=
old-paper.jpg?w=3D676" src=3D"https://i1.wp.com/khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/=
uploads/2019/06/other-old-paper.jpg?fit=3D1024%2C498&amp;ssl=3D1" alt=3D"" =
class=3D"wp-image-4323"><figcaption>Two documents from the same period show=
ing how death acquired a new social meaning. The document on the right, dat=
ed 1850 (1266 on the Islamic calendar), shows how families from al-Darb al-=
Ahmar, after the death of a woman named =E2=80=98Aisha Bint Musa al-Dib, we=
re interested in identifying her possessions in order to be able to divide =
the estate in a proper legal (shar=E2=80=99i) manner. On the other hand, th=
e document on the left, dated 1851 (1267), highlights how death has become =
one of the concerns of public health authorities, and how the doctor of tum=
n al-Khalifa (a Cairo neighborhood) had to specify the causes of death on a=
 daily basis, including typhus, diarrhea, and severe infection.</figcaption=
></figure><p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; =
color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; m=
argin: 0 0 1em;'>In cases where the external post-mortem examination were n=
ot conclusive, then the body would be sent to Qasr al-Aini for an autopsy. =
The medical professors would convene something called an =E2=80=9Cautopsy a=
ssembly=E2=80=9D and write a detailed report.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: =
rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvet=
ica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>Y.C.</st=
rong>: So there is a very fine level of detail=E2=80=A6</p>=0A<p style=3D'd=
irection: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-famil=
y: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><stron=
g>K.F.</strong>: Very fine. And there is faith in this thing called medicin=
e, that it can resolve these cases. The question I then had to ask was how =
these reports were used legally. That meant I had to know about the legal s=
ystem.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4e=
m; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif=
; margin: 0 0 1em;'>I formed another question: how is the medicine as used =
in shari=E2=80=99a courts different from that used in the legal councils? I=
n the end, it=E2=80=99s all a matter of what is meant by proof. In Islamic =
jurisprudence there is something called=C2=A0<em>bayyina=C2=A0</em>(shar=
=E2=80=99i evidence), and a medical report is not considered evidence in th=
is sense.=C2=A0<em>Bayyina</em>=C2=A0is either an eyewitness account or a c=
onfession by the defendant. In other words, it is a verbal act, and a medic=
al report is not a verbal act, but a written one. So the topic started movi=
ng in this direction and came to be centered on the idea of autopsy and for=
ensic medicine.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-hei=
ght: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, s=
ans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>I started thinking about how to formulate this=
, all the questions related to the history of medicine, social history, and=
 the medical dimension, but also shari=E2=80=99a, statecraft, and the relat=
ionship of statecraft and historiography. Why hadn=E2=80=99t this been writ=
ten about? Why has it been obscured? This isn=E2=80=99t about one or two in=
cidents, a couple of cases or a few documents. I=E2=80=99m talking about mi=
llions of cases, documents and records.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; f=
ont-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Ne=
ue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>Y.C.</strong>:=
 These things are all there in the National Archives, right? You didn=
=E2=80=99t find them in other archives?</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; f=
ont-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Ne=
ue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>K.F.</strong>:=
 No, all in Egypt. How come the current Egyptian legal system knows nothing=
 about this, about its own history?</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-=
size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue",=
 Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>Y.C.</strong>: So =
I guess it is not taught in the history of law in law schools today?</p>=0A=
<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #44=
4; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0=
 1em;'><strong>K.F.</strong>: No. I once took a senior law professor from A=
lexandria University, Burham Atallah, to the National Archives, and when he=
 saw these records, he told me, =E2=80=98This is astonishing!=E2=80=99 Firs=
t of all, he said, we are not in command of language the way these people w=
ere. Secondly, he said that these records show a complex system in action. =
He said he needed to study it further. This senior professor recognized tha=
t there was something astonishing about this system. In the introduction of=
 my book, I explain why this 19th-century history hasn=E2=80=99t been writt=
en about. I tried to identify exactly which books had obscured it, not on p=
urpose, but because there had been a blind spot that made some scholars vie=
w law as administration rather than law.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; =
font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica N=
eue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>I started to see that=
 I had to tie these different threads together. Okay, how do I do that?</p>=
=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: =
#444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: =
0 0 1em;'>First, I wanted to write the story in a way that would make the b=
ody the main unit of analysis, because I=E2=80=99m talking about the human =
body and conflict over the body. I have an article titled =E2=80=9CWho Owns=
 the Body?=E2=80=9D That=E2=80=99s the question, the crux of the matter. Do=
es the body belong to God and we=E2=80=99re just trustees over it? Or does =
it belong to the person who lives inside it? After death, does it belong to=
 the family or society? And how do you care for it and dignify it with a bu=
rial? Or does it belong to the state which lays a peculiar claim over it?</=
p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color=
: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin=
: 0 0 1em;'>And so I decided I=E2=80=99d write five chapters corresponding =
to the five senses, in the conventional order in which they appear in both =
the Western and Islamic medical textual traditions: starting with sight, th=
en sound, smell =E2=80=94 an ambivalent sense, that one =E2=80=94 taste, an=
d finally touch.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>Each sense has its own chapter. Each chapter =
not only tells part of the story, but also narrates or presents a particula=
r argument. The chapter about sight, for example, is about autopsy, which l=
iterally means to see for oneself in latin. The Arabic word has other conno=
tations related to speech or explication, but there are also terms in Arabi=
c, such as=C2=A0<em>sharh al-sadr</em>, meaning to rupture, that are also r=
elated to sight, if only in an indirect manner. Anyway, the first chapter i=
s about this procedure, how it was done, and the reaction to it.</p>=0A<fig=
ure class=3D"wp-block-image"><img border=3D"0" style=3D"max-width: 100%; he=
ight: auto; margin-bottom: 12px;" data-attachment-id=3D"4324" data-permalin=
k=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/2019/06/08/a-history-of-the-state-told-through=
-the-senses/illustration-1-rescaled/" data-orig-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy=
.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/illustration-1-rescaled.png" data-orig-size=
=3D"2000,1227" data-comments-opened=3D"1" data-image-meta=3D'{"aperture":"0=
","credit":"","camera":"","caption":"","created_timestamp":"0","copyright":=
"","focal_length":"0","iso":"0","shutter_speed":"0","title":"","orientation=
":"0"}' data-image-title=3D"illustration-1-rescaled" data-image-description=
=3D"" data-medium-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/0=
6/illustration-1-rescaled.png?w=3D300" data-large-file=3D"https://khaledfah=
my.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/illustration-1-rescaled.png?w=3D676" src=
=3D"https://i2.wp.com/khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/illustrati=
on-1-rescaled.png?fit=3D1024%2C628&amp;ssl=3D1" alt=3D"" class=3D"wp-image-=
4324"><figcaption>Illustration by Rime Naguib</figcaption></figure><p style=
=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-=
family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>S=
ound is interesting. It isn=E2=80=99t completely obvious, but it=E2=80=
=99s fundamental to the law. The conventional way of narrating the developm=
ent of law in Egypt is as a process of secularization: we had a religious s=
ystem and then we came to have a positive law system. This is the common st=
ory for both Islamists and non-Islamists, and in my opinion, it=E2=80=99s n=
ot accurate. Perhaps it=E2=80=99s better to characterize the development of=
 the legal system as a shift from one that relied on the spoken word in the=
 shari=E2=80=99a courts to one that relied on the written words in the lega=
l councils. This shift reflects a profound epistemological difference in th=
e understanding of the law, the concepts of evidence and proof, and ultimat=
ely even more basic things: the concept of personhood and justice. That=
=E2=80=99s the second chapter.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size:=
 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helv=
etica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>The third chapter is about smel=
l. This is actually less about medicine than about public health. There are=
 numerous records that talk about noxious odors not simply as something dis=
tasteful, but as dangerous. The idea was that disease spread through foul a=
ir, which is befouled by miasma that ultimately emanate from decomposing bo=
dies that give off humors. One finds the origins of this idea in both the G=
alenic and the Avicennian lore, namely, that the human body is composed of =
four bodily humors: blood, yellow bile, black bile and phlegm.</p>=0A<p sty=
le=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; fon=
t-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'=
>This idea had a hugely important impact on the reconstruction of Cairo in =
the 19th century. The story is not, as it is popularly known in Egypt, that=
 Khedive Ismail went to Paris and there fell in love with Eugenie [de Monti=
jo, Empress of France, and wife of Napoleon III] blah, blah, blah, and then=
 came back and decided he wanted to build a Paris along the Nile. No. Rathe=
r, he and Ali Mubarak [an important 19th century reformer] went to Paris af=
ter it was redesigned by Haussmann and Mubarak describes how he had to see =
for himself what the enterprising pr=C3=A9fet de la Seine had done to Paris=
. Once in Paris, he actually went down into the sewers. This is a critical =
visit in=C2=A0<em>Al-Khitat al-Tawfiqiya</em>=C2=A0where Mubarak describes =
his visit to Paris. He had studied there, then he came back twenty years la=
ter and found the city transformed, and the most significant aspect of this=
 transformation was that when he went down to the sewers he didn=E2=80=
=99t detect any foul smell. They would take princes and kings down to the s=
ewers to show them that they had tamed nature to serve them and it no longe=
r constituted a source of danger. That=E2=80=99s why he launched a campaign=
 against ponds and swamps. As=C2=A0<a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; =
color: #2585B2;" href=3D"https://academiccommons.columbia.edu/doi/10.7916/D=
8Z611FD" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer noopener">Shehab Ismail</a>=
=C2=A0[a historian who received his doctorate from Columbia University in N=
ew York and worked on the history of sanitation in Cairo] showed, in the en=
d, the Khalig was drained. This was an important artery in the life of Cair=
enes, which bisected the city from north to south. So the Khalig was filled=
 in because it had become a source of danger. It later became the path of t=
he first tramway in Cairo in the late 19th century.</p>=0A<figure class=3D"=
wp-block-image"><img border=3D"0" style=3D"max-width: 100%; height: auto; m=
argin-bottom: 12px;" data-attachment-id=3D"4325" data-permalink=3D"https://=
khaledfahmy.org/2019/06/08/a-history-of-the-state-told-through-the-senses/l=
aughing-skull/" data-orig-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/upload=
s/2019/06/laughing-skull.jpg" data-orig-size=3D"1000,1333" data-comments-op=
ened=3D"1" data-image-meta=3D'{"aperture":"0","credit":"","camera":"","capt=
ion":"","created_timestamp":"0","copyright":"","focal_length":"0","iso":"0"=
,"shutter_speed":"0","title":"","orientation":"1"}' data-image-title=3D"lau=
ghing-skull" data-image-description=3D"" data-medium-file=3D"https://khaled=
fahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/laughing-skull.jpg?w=3D225" data-large=
-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/laughing-skull.=
jpg?w=3D676" src=3D"https://i0.wp.com/khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/20=
19/06/laughing-skull.jpg?fit=3D768%2C1024&amp;ssl=3D1" alt=3D"" class=3D"wp=
-image-4325"><figcaption>Illustration by Rime Naguib</figcaption></figure><=
p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444=
; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 =
1em;'>Let me move to =C2=A0the fifth chapter next, which is about touch. Th=
is chapter is about torture. I was trying to explain, after a discussion of=
 the legal and medical systems, why torture was abolished at a certain poin=
t in judicial history, specifically, in 1861. What was the role of torture =
in the legal system? It wasn=E2=80=99t some secret practice; it was public =
but suddenly it was abolished. Why? I examined the law, and found a decree =
explicitly called the =E2=80=9CDecree of replacing flogging with incarcerat=
ion.=E2=80=9D I kept noting how Foucauldian this was, with the prisons and =
autopsy. Prisons supplanted torture as a means of punishment, and autopsy r=
eplaced flogging as a means of obtaining confession and establishing proof.=
 There was no longer any need for torture.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl=
; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica=
 Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>The fourth chapter =
took me two years to write. I thought it would be about taste and forensic =
chemistry, related to the murder cases I mentioned, or cases of suspicious =
death by poisoning or drugging. The source of the chapter was a series of p=
olice cases that involved the use of datura, a drug that came from a plant =
of the same name. So there were gangs that ambush people coming to Cairo an=
d they=E2=80=99d give them dates or bread adulterated with datura, which wo=
uld drug them so they could then rob them. The police would find the victim=
 on the road still drugged three days later, and sometimes they would find =
the victims already dead. It=E2=80=99s an extremely potent drug and the vic=
tims would be incapable of remembering what happened to them or who gave th=
em the adulterated dates or bread. So the police were working to arrest thi=
s gang, but a big part of the investigation was the discovery of datura its=
elf.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em;=
 color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; =
margin: 0 0 1em;'>I found out that there was a whole administration known a=
s the Chemical-Pharmaceutical Lab. This was in Qasr al-Aini and overseen by=
 a French doctor, Gastinel. It=E2=80=99s obvious the Chemical-Pharmaceutica=
l Lab was renowned, as it received a mention in=C2=A0<a style=3D"text-decor=
ation: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=3D"https://archive.org/details/egyp=
thand00karl/page/244" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer noopener">Baedeke=
r=E2=80=99s travel guide</a>.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: =
14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helve=
tica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>The most important thing is the =
reports those doctors write, not only in criminal cases, but also on suspec=
ted food samples, particularly coffee and bread, they had collected from th=
e market and then sent to the police. Someone claims that certain bread or =
coffee is adulterated, so the police go to investigate the coffeehouse or t=
he bakery and they send seized samples to the chemical lab for analysis. Th=
e lab writes a report saying they found chickpeas or ground hazelnut shells=
, or, worse, insects in the examined sample and would add that this is haza=
rdous to the health. I found these reports and I told myself that I can wri=
te a chapter on taste using this.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-si=
ze: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", H=
elvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>When I was writing the chapt=
er, I wrote a short introduction, just three pages, trying to explain the d=
ifference between this system of market regulation using chemistry (examina=
tion of milk, water, bread, coffee, etc.) =E2=80=94 in addition to the datu=
ra issue, the criminal dimension, and the importance of the chemical lab in=
 tracking these things =E2=80=94 and the previous regulatory system of=
=C2=A0<em>hisba</em>. Why? Because I read a book by al-Shayzari, who was we=
ll known in the 12th century. He has a very famous book on=C2=A0<em>hisba</=
em>,=C2=A0<em>Nihayat al Rutba fi Talab al-Hisba</em>, one of the most impo=
rtant books on the topic because it=E2=80=99s less a work of jurisprudence =
than a guide for the=C2=A0<em>muhtasib</em>, the inspector, on how to disco=
ver the various types of deception and fraud used with different foods. Soc=
ial historians even use the book as a source for food history because it co=
ntains recipes. It tells you how they would sell fake figs, for example, or=
 that when they mix goat with beef, they do it in such-and-such way, and wa=
tch out when the fish looks this or that. In the introduction, I was trying=
 to say that the=C2=A0<em>hisba</em>=C2=A0system ultimately depended on the=
 constant presence of the=C2=A0<em>muhtasib</em>=C2=A0and that the overridi=
ng concern was a moral one about fraud or deception. In contrast, the overr=
iding concern in the 19th century was health: there was some source of dang=
er, and they didn=E2=80=99t talk much about morals.</p>=0A<figure class=3D"=
wp-block-image"><img border=3D"0" style=3D"max-width: 100%; height: auto; m=
argin-bottom: 12px;" data-attachment-id=3D"4326" data-permalink=3D"https://=
khaledfahmy.org/2019/06/08/a-history-of-the-state-told-through-the-senses/m=
ada-batwing/" data-orig-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/=
2019/06/mada-batwing.jpg" data-orig-size=3D"1000,707" data-comments-opened=
=3D"1" data-image-meta=3D'{"aperture":"0","credit":"","camera":"","caption"=
:"","created_timestamp":"0","copyright":"","focal_length":"0","iso":"0","sh=
utter_speed":"0","title":"","orientation":"1"}' data-image-title=3D"mada-ba=
twing" data-image-description=3D"" data-medium-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.=
org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/mada-batwing.jpg?w=3D300" data-large-file=3D=
"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/mada-batwing.jpg?w=3D67=
6" src=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/mada-batwing.j=
pg" alt=3D"" class=3D"wp-image-4326"><figcaption>Illustration by Rime Nagui=
b</figcaption></figure><p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-he=
ight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, =
sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>I started reading about the history of=C2=
=A0<em>hisba</em>, the history of the market inspector, which led me to Tal=
al Asad [an anthropologist and an important theorist of religion and secula=
rism who had an enormous influence on postcolonial and Middle Eastern studi=
es] and his students. One of those is Hussein Agrama, who has=C2=A0<a style=
=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=3D"https://www.press.=
uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/Q/bo13590023.html" target=3D"_blank" re=
l=3D"noreferrer noopener">a wonderful book</a>=C2=A0about the Egyptian lega=
l system, with a chapter on=C2=A0<em>hisba</em>, but with the inspector as =
a moral rather than market inspector. In classical Islamic jurisprudence, t=
he=C2=A0<em>muhtasib</em>=C2=A0did both, that is, he inspected both the mar=
ket transactions, for example, weights and measures, as well as public beha=
viors, for example, the mixing of the sexes in the thoroughfare. But in con=
temporary popular Egyptian imagination,=C2=A0<em>hisba</em>=C2=A0immediatel=
y calls to mind the issue of freedom of expression because of the case of s=
cholar Nasr Abu Zeid who was declared an apostate in the early 1990s for hi=
s work on Quranic hermeneutics. It=E2=80=99s a sprawling, complex system, a=
nd I decided to grapple with it, trying to explain how the chemistry-based =
market regulatory system =E2=80=94 with its different philosophy, epistemol=
ogical history, and mechanisms =E2=80=94 differs from the=C2=A0<em>hisba</e=
m>=C2=A0system as expounded by someone like al-Shayzari, or others before h=
im who looked at it from a more juristic dimension.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direc=
tion: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "=
Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>But why wa=
s I determined to include this? First, the so-called Islamic State (ISIS) h=
ad a diwan of=C2=A0<em>hisba</em>, in fact one of the earliest departments =
they established. Hussein Agrama writes about=C2=A0<em>hisba</em>, so does =
Talal Asad. Wael Hallaq [professor of law and Islamic intellectual history =
at Columbia University] writes about the shari=E2=80=99a and=C2=A0<em>hisba=
</em>=C2=A0specifically. I look at the history of=C2=A0<em>hisba</em>=C2=
=A0in Egypt in the Mamluk and Ottoman periods, and then under Mohammed Ali,=
 and then comes the moment when the office of the=C2=A0<em>muhtasib</em>is =
abolished, just like flogging was. Because there was an alternative =
=E2=80=94 there was something new to rely on to achieve the same purpose.</=
p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color=
: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin=
: 0 0 1em;'>So this is not about secularization. It=E2=80=99s closely tied =
to the separation of morals from public law, but in my opinion, this chapte=
r offers a more accurate and deeper analysis than a focus on the legal elit=
e or Egyptian politicians=E2=80=99 betrayal of their inherited belief syste=
m, which is the conventional view. As Foucault taught us, this separation o=
f morals and law is arbitrary and violent, but how precisely did it happen?=
 And why? This is what we need to know. This chapter was one of the hardest=
 for me, but the most interesting, if I can say that, or at least the most =
exciting.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1=
.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-se=
rif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>I don=E2=80=99t have a clear conclusion for the book=
. You asked me what the main idea was and I can=E2=80=99t tell you. I can t=
ell you who I was engaging with: I was engaging Talal Asad and his students=
, Egyptian Islamists and their view of the modernization of the Egyptian st=
ate, and traditional historians, particularly historians of medicine and th=
e Egyptian state and their narrative of the emergence of these institutions=
 and how they were created. I was also engaging with people who work on the=
 history of translation and their explanation of how translation arose in E=
gypt, as well as postcolonial historians who don=E2=80=99t hesitate to desc=
ribe the medical system as a colonial one. I=E2=80=99m asking what=E2=80=
=99s colonial about colonial medicine and refute the idea that the medicine=
 of Clot Bey in Egypt =E2=80=94 even though he was French =E2=80=94 was col=
onial.</p>=0A<figure class=3D"wp-block-image"><img border=3D"0" style=3D"ma=
x-width: 100%; height: auto; margin-bottom: 12px;" data-attachment-id=3D"43=
27" data-permalink=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/2019/06/08/a-history-of-the-s=
tate-told-through-the-senses/clot-bey-6/" data-orig-file=3D"https://khaledf=
ahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/clot-bey.jpg" data-orig-size=3D"662,743=
" data-comments-opened=3D"1" data-image-meta=3D'{"aperture":"0","credit":""=
,"camera":"","caption":"","created_timestamp":"0","copyright":"","focal_len=
gth":"0","iso":"0","shutter_speed":"0","title":"","orientation":"1"}' data-=
image-title=3D"clot-bey" data-image-description=3D"" data-medium-file=3D"ht=
tps://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/clot-bey.jpg?w=3D267" data=
-large-file=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/clot-bey.=
jpg?w=3D662" src=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/clot=
-bey.jpg" alt=3D"" class=3D"wp-image-4327"><figcaption>Clot Bey</figcaption=
></figure><p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; =
color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; m=
argin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>Y.C.</strong>: This is an excellent response, beca=
use you=E2=80=99ve also begun to answer three other questions I had. I=
=E2=80=99ll list them so we can also clarify these three points. In this bo=
ok, in contrast to=C2=A0<em>All the Pasha=E2=80=99s Men</em>, in which you =
talked more about the statist discourse about the Egyptian state, here you=
=E2=80=99re also engaging with the Islamist discourse about the law. About =
how, as you just said, the legal elite ostensibly abandoned its heritage an=
d turned toward European positive law and so on. So you=E2=80=99re grapplin=
g with this point and this discourse.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; fon=
t-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue=
", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>There=E2=80=99s another =
point of engagement I wanted to ask about as well: the conversation with po=
stcolonial historians. Was there some desire with this book to propose a di=
fferent way of talking about the legacy of the 19th century? What I mean is=
 that postcolonial studies, which has given so much to the humanities, has =
maybe also shut down some discussions and oversimplified them, in its way o=
f asking some questions and its dominance at some American universities. Pe=
rhaps all this made you want to highlight some new points? Of course, I=
=E2=80=99m not saying that you=E2=80=99re defending the colonial legacy, bu=
t that maybe we should look at this period differently.</p>=0A<p style=3D'd=
irection: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-famil=
y: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>When y=
ou were talking about the book, you used a certain word several times: asto=
nishing. I=E2=80=99m not sure quite how to describe this, but I feel that t=
here=E2=80=99s a sort of awe at these institutions, the experiments we had =
in the 19th century, when you talk about forensic medicine or the quality o=
f translation. Many people when they see this might say, yes, this is very =
modern, this was a golden and lost age, and so I wonder if there is a littl=
e bit of nostalgia for the institutions formed at this moment. I think you =
show that they are not purely colonial or imported institutions, and that i=
t=E2=80=99s more complicated than that.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; f=
ont-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Ne=
ue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>This astonishment at e=
xperiences that took place in a certain moment and did not happen by design=
. Do you feel you=E2=80=99re a bit impressed by the 19th century or institu=
tions at that time? I imagine you do not have this very statist, modernizat=
ion outlook, that the modern state is something nice. But at times do you t=
hink about this and say: we can look at today and say that yes, there has b=
een some deterioration of a heritage =E2=80=94 not necessarily a religious =
or doctrinal heritage or legacy, but that the state heritage, the heritage =
of institutions has declined? That=E2=80=99s a bit of a different question.=
</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; col=
or: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; marg=
in: 0 0 1em;'><strong>K.F.</strong>: These are important questions. I think=
 the first two are related, and the response is what you said: it=E2=80=
=99s about empirical data. The third question regarding being impressed is =
actually related to what you said about our distress at our present circums=
tances. Let me take each in turn.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-si=
ze: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", H=
elvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>First of all, I found myself=
 wondering why postcolonial studies and Islamists in Egypt seem to agree wh=
en it comes to dismissing history. They have foregone conclusions without h=
aving done the work, but the work has to be done first. Of course, one is a=
 bit embarrassed to say this, or afraid one=E2=80=99 might be called an emp=
iricist. First you must respect the data =E2=80=94 that=E2=80=99s the first=
 thing =E2=80=94 and then we can disagree about interpretations. But the th=
ing we=E2=80=99re talking about, don=E2=80=99t come at me with theories. Le=
t me explain.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-heigh=
t: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, san=
s-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>Regarding the Islamists, I=E2=80=99m troubled by=
 their disregard of the=C2=A0<em>history</em>=C2=A0of shari=E2=80=99a. Al-S=
ayyid Sabiq, Tareq al-Bishri and Abd al-Qader Ouda all wrote extremely impo=
rtant books about many things, partly about the history of the law and shar=
i=E2=80=99a. It=E2=80=99s there that they didn=E2=80=99t do the work, even =
Tareq al-Bishri, whom I consider an extremely important historian of Egypt.=
</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; col=
or: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; marg=
in: 0 0 1em;'>Even until the 1980s or 1990s, the Islamists said they had it=
 all codified and waiting =E2=80=94 famously, that =E2=80=9Cthe shari=
=E2=80=99a is in the top drawer.=E2=80=9D They said they had codified it bu=
t that there was no political will to put these codified legislation into a=
ction. When it came to presenting a historical argument, they don=E2=80=
=99t tire of repeating that we had this shari=E2=80=99a and then the West c=
ame in with different forms and replaced it with its own laws.. This is jus=
t polemic first of all, we don=E2=80=99t know this for a fact. Of course, a=
l-Bishri doesn=E2=80=99t only cite this fact, he talks about Ottoman regula=
tions and about Qadri Pasha, but the basic idea is that the despotic West c=
ame and forced us to abandon our heritage, or, as they say, our=C2=A0<em>tu=
rath</em>. Al-Sayyid Sabiq in his multi-volume work has only three pages ab=
out the history of jurisprudence. Why? Because he wants us to forget about =
it and he=E2=80=99ll tell us what it is: it=E2=80=99s the jurisprudence of =
the Sunna. Forget about all those schools of thought, the=C2=A0<em>madhahib=
</em>, he tells us. The Brotherhood salafi view is that there=E2=80=99s no =
need to get into such debates, it divides us; instead we should strive to f=
ind what unites us. They=E2=80=99ll tell us what we need to know about food=
, marriage, divorce, and so on. Fine, that=E2=80=99s political, a political=
 intervention for a particular purpose, but the history of jurisprudence is=
 a long one that can=E2=80=99t be abridged like that, as if Islamic law and=
 jurisprudence have no history.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size=
: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Hel=
vetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>Abd al-Qader Ouda states this =
more explicitly in his influential book where he compares Islamic criminal =
law to positive law. He says, don=E2=80=99t tell me that Western criminal l=
aw evolved and the shari=E2=80=99a is rigid. What are you talking about? he=
 asks. The shari=E2=80=99a was born complete, sublime, and comprehensive. I=
t wasn=E2=80=99t born lacking anything so that it later evolved. No, it=
=E2=80=99s this divine thing, so we can=E2=80=99t say that it was born inco=
mplete and later developed. Development suggests it was lacking or somehow =
flawed and we rectified it. For him, it=E2=80=99s a complete, comprehensive=
, sublime system.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-h=
eight: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial,=
 sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>Y.C.</strong>: So it needs no histor=
y.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; c=
olor: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; ma=
rgin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>K.F.</strong>: It doesn=E2=80=99t need a history an=
d it doesn=E2=80=99t have one. Of course, we historians who work on the his=
tory of shari=E2=80=99a in the Ottoman period see different historical prac=
tices evolving. So this neglect or disregard of history is also impressive,=
 but in a negative sense. Why is my work important in this area =E2=80=
=94 my work and that of Emad Helal, Ruud Peters, and other researchers? We =
expose a different narrative, that it=E2=80=99s not about the coming of the=
 West. The question I ask is: this shari=E2=80=99a we had, what was it? It =
becomes clear that someone like Tareq al-Bishri and others who want to appl=
y the shari=E2=80=99a now, don=E2=80=99t know how it used to be applied.</p=
>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color:=
 #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin:=
 0 0 1em;'><strong>Y.C.</strong>: They haven=E2=80=99t asked themselves the=
 question.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: =
1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-s=
erif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>K.F.</strong>: They haven=E2=80=99t asked h=
ow it was practiced. We had shari=E2=80=99a courts, fine. How did they oper=
ate? Yes, there is revealed law (<em>shar=E2=80=99</em>), but there is also=
 man-made law (<em>qanun</em>), which is issued by the sultan. It is supple=
mentary to Islamic jurisprudence and the shari=E2=80=99a courts. It is true=
 that the judge in the shari=E2=80=99a courts does not apply the qanun issu=
ed by the sultan, he applies revealed law. But there is a parallel judicial=
 body in Egypt in the 18th century known as al-Diwan al-=E2=80=98Ali, the o=
ffice of the governor of Egypt, the Ottoman sultan=E2=80=99s viceroy. Accor=
ding to=C2=A0<a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=
=3D"https://edinburghuniversitypress.com/book-islamic-law-and-empire-in-ott=
oman-cairo.html" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer noopener">James Baldwi=
n</a>=C2=A0who teaches Islamic law at Royal Holloway, University of London,=
 this office actually adjudicates cases. The same cases heard by judges in =
the shari=E2=80=99a courts can be heard by that office. This is before the =
West, before Napoleon. This isn=E2=80=99t a hybrid or imported system, or a=
 secular system. It=E2=80=99s an Islamic system =E2=80=94 not only Islamic,=
 but a shari=E2=80=99a-based system, because the [man-made] law is part of =
the entirety of revealed law (<em>shar=E2=80=99</em>).</p>=0A<figure class=
=3D"wp-block-image"><a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;=
" href=3D"https://madamasr.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/sharia-graphic.jp=
g" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer noopener"><img border=3D"0" style=3D=
"max-width: 100%; height: auto; margin-bottom: 12px;" src=3D"https://madama=
sr.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/sharia-graphic.jpg" alt=3D"" class=3D"wp-=
image-279952"></a><figcaption>The official coat of arms of the Ottoman sult=
anate in the late 19th century. Note that shari=E2=80=99a, the legal basis =
for rights and justice, is represented by two books: a green book, which is=
 fiqh, and a red book, which is siyasa.</figcaption></figure><p style=3D'di=
rection: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family=
: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'></p>=0A=
<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #44=
4; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0=
 1em;'>So what=E2=80=99s the problem? The problem is that Islamists and man=
y other people believe that shari=E2=80=99a =E2=80=94 is nothing but=C2=
=A0<em>fiqh</em>, that is jurisprudence. They think that the intellectual p=
roduct that we refer to as jurisprudence=C2=A0<em>is</em>=C2=A0the shari=
=E2=80=99a. But the shari=E2=80=99a, in my opinion, includes jurisprudence =
as well as=C2=A0<em>qada=E2=80=99</em>, that is, judgeship,=C2=A0<em>fatwa<=
/em>, that is, unbinding legal opinion,=C2=A0<em>waqf</em>, that is pious e=
ndowments, etc. But in addition, shari=E2=80=99a also includes the laws ref=
erred to as statecraft or state administration (<em>siyasa</em>). This is w=
hy Ibn Taymiya called it=C2=A0<em>al-siyasa al-shar=E2=80=99iya.</em>=C2=
=A0This statecraft is part of shari=E2=80=99a, and that was the understandi=
ng of shari=E2=80=99a at that time. If you want to tell me how that system =
disappeared, fine, let=E2=80=99s study that. Let=E2=80=99s see the details =
of what happened to that system that no longer exists. I absolutely do not =
deny that there was intervention by the West in the form of colonialism, im=
perialism, and the inherent racism in them, and that a big part of that was=
 a clear legal system. But let=E2=80=99s talk more granularly, do the work =
that hasn=E2=80=99t been done, so that we can understand how this shift occ=
urred. I think my book is a contribution here.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction:=
 rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helve=
tica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>As for the seco=
nd question, about being impressed by state practices. Of course, as I=
=E2=80=99m sitting in the National Archives, I=E2=80=99m dealing with state=
 employees. I have interacted with them for over twenty years. I have inter=
acted with them at the entrance of the actual building of the Archives, in =
the Reading Room, in the cafeteria, in the stacks, and of course, I have al=
so interacted with many of directors who found themselves appointed there. =
It is interesting to note, that with important exceptions, some of these di=
rectors had no idea what the National Archives is. So I sit and observe. At=
 the same time, I read in the same building these impressive state records =
from 150 or 200 years ago, and I cannot help but make comparisons, and noti=
ce differences. And the differences are obviously not in our favor. The det=
erioration that Egypt witnessed is impressive. It=E2=80=99s not that I reac=
h this conclusion after visiting the British Library or the British Nationa=
l Archives at Kew. It is not by comparing our current state to the mighty B=
ritish Empire that I realize how backward we are. It is by comparing our st=
ate now with how we started our nahda 200 hundred years ago that I find the=
 deterioration impressive.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14p=
x; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetic=
a, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>When I told you before that after a=
 while you hit the rule of diminishing returns and start to find things rep=
eating themselves =E2=80=94 it is then that you detect a certain spirit, a =
geist, if you like. The spirit or feeling that I got after reading thousand=
s and thousands of 19th century documents was confidence =E2=80=94 self-con=
fidence and confidence in this administration that was being carefully buil=
t. Not necessarily because it managed to find solutions to every problem th=
e country faced, but because it had a mechanism of solving things, and a ce=
rtain pride and self-respect in what they were doing. These administrators =
may be Europeans. Or Turks. Or Armenians. Or Levantines. But I consider the=
m all Egyptians, meaning they are all working for an administration that is=
 Egyptian. And they have a palpable sense of pride and self-respect. This p=
ride is no more. It doesn=E2=80=99t exist any more. No Egyptian bureaucrat =
now has the same positive self-image his or her forebears had, and it=
=E2=80=99s sad. So it=E2=80=99s also this sadness that stems from realizing=
 that we had this state and then it was lost, or we lost it. Am I being unc=
ritically impressed by 19th century state-building processes, by this geist=
? I don=E2=80=99t think so. Because the whole time, I ask myself what was l=
acking, or what was wrong about this impressive system. The system is impre=
ssive because, if we take law as an example, the Archives allow me to follo=
w a case from the very initial stage to the end because of the notational r=
emarks the scribes back then inserted literally in the margins of the case.=
 I tell my students to go the National Archives and think like a scribe. If=
 you work like a historian, you won=E2=80=99t be able to engage with the ma=
terial. You should go in and let them =E2=80=94 the people you=E2=80=99re r=
eading =E2=80=94 take you along with them. And if you let go, if you allow =
these 19th century scribes to guide you through their work, you will be tru=
ly impressed.=C2=A0</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line=
-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Aria=
l, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'>So yes, this is an impressive thing, but w=
hat was lacking? I ask that question all the time. There was something miss=
ing. I=E2=80=99ve said for a long time that I think this state has a dazzli=
ng, though oppressive discourse. At the end of the day, this state was serv=
ing itself not the public. So when I read in this state=E2=80=99s own docum=
ents about people who figured out the state=E2=80=99s discourse and underst=
ood how it functioned, and when I see them succeeding in using state mechan=
isms to their own benefit =E2=80=94 not through petitions and supplications=
, but through making demands, like asking for autopsies as a way to establi=
sh legal proof =E2=80=94 it gives me hope that this leviathan has some cons=
traints after all, and that this state can be manipulated to serve us and g=
ive us our rights, though ultimately it is designed to serve itself.</p>=0A=
<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #44=
4; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0=
 1em;'>Of course, this contrasts with a widespread view about statecraft an=
d justice, a view informed by a certain Islamic discourse of statecraft, of=
 subjects (not citizens) who have to be protected and taken care of. I beli=
eve Mohammed Ali often thought of himself in these terms, that he was entru=
sted with subjects whose wellbeing =E2=80=94 their lives, their property, t=
heir honour =E2=80=94 has to be protected. He thought of himself along thes=
e lines, as a Muslim prince, if you may. But how exactly can he protect his=
 subjects and uphold justice? At the core of his concern was how to stop th=
e abuse of power. How to make sure that his own agents do not oppress the s=
ubject. This is where petitions come in, because this was a way of exposing=
 abuse of power by the Pasha=E2=80=99s agents. In the end, they replaced th=
is with the councils. The purpose of these legal councils, in my opinion, w=
as not to bring justice, but to control the Pasha=E2=80=99s agents, that is=
, the ruling class. But that=E2=80=99s another argument. I=E2=80=99m just m=
entioning this to say that I was not uncritically impressed by this state. =
I am always thinking of its internal contradictions.=C2=A0</p>=0A<p style=
=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-=
family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><=
strong>Y.C.</strong>: I think you made this argument about Mohammed Ali=
=E2=80=99s early tenure. Yes, there were perhaps impressive things accompli=
shed, but was it inevitable that they be done in this way? Was it possible =
for it to be impressive without thousands of people dying?</p>=0A<p style=
=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; line-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-=
family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><=
strong>K.F.</strong>: And these are first and foremost political questions,=
 and these are the questions I=E2=80=99m trying to get people to ask. To as=
k this political question, even now. Fine, you want stability, and that=
=E2=80=99s important, but must it come at the expense of killing a thousand=
 people in Rab=E2=80=99a? Is this the only way? If it is, what=E2=80=99s th=
e cost and who pays it? These are all political questions. For that reason =
they=E2=80=99re difficult and sensitive, and people don=E2=80=99t want to a=
sk them, because you find yourself asking not only political questions, but=
 ethical ones as well.</p>=0A<p style=3D'direction: rtl; font-size: 14px; l=
ine-height: 1.4em; color: #444; font-family: "Helvetica Neue", Helvetica, A=
rial, sans-serif; margin: 0 0 1em;'><strong>Y.C.</strong>: Thank you for yo=
ur time and your discussion of the book.</p>=0A<div style=3D"direction: rtl=
; clear: both"></div>=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09</div>=0A=0A=09=09=09=09=09=09=
=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=
=09=09<div class=3D"meta" style=3D"direction: rtl; color: #999; font-size: =
.9em; margin-top: 4px; line-height: 160%; padding: 15px 0 15px; border-top:=
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=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09=09<strong><a style=3D"text-de=
coration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/?auth=
or=3D2">Khaled Fahmy</a></strong> | 8 =D9=8A=D9=88=D9=86=D9=8A=D9=88=D8=
=8C 2019 =D8=B9=D9=86=D8=AF 2:34 =D9=85 | =D8=A7=D9=84=D9=88=D8=B3=D9=88=
=D9=85: <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=3D"ht=
tps://khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dpost_tag&amp;term=3Dclot-bey">Clot Bey</a=
>, <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=3D"https:/=
/khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dpost_tag&amp;term=3Demad-helal">Emad Helal</a>=
, <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=3D"https://=
khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dpost_tag&amp;term=3Dhussein-agrama">Hussein Agr=
ama</a>, <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=3D"h=
ttps://khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dpost_tag&amp;term=3Dmehmed-ali">Mehmed A=
li</a>, <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=3D"ht=
tps://khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dpost_tag&amp;term=3Dqasr-al-aini">Qasr al=
-Aini</a>, <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=3D=
"https://khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dpost_tag&amp;term=3Drime-naguib">Rime =
Naguib</a>, <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=
=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dpost_tag&amp;term=3Drudolph-peters"=
>Rudolph Peters</a>, <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2=
;" href=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dpost_tag&amp;term=3Dsharia">=
Sharia</a>, <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=
=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dpost_tag&amp;term=3Dshehab-ismail">=
Shehab Ismail</a>, <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;"=
 href=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dpost_tag&amp;term=3Dtalal-asad=
">Talal Asad</a>, <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" =
href=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dpost_tag&amp;term=3Dyoussef-el-=
chazli">Youssef El Chazli</a>=0A | =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=AA=D8=B5=D9=86=D9=8A=
=D9=81=D8=A7=D8=AA: <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;=
" href=3D"https://khaledfahmy.org/?taxonomy=3Dcategory&amp;term=3Dmedia-app=
earances">Media appearances</a>=0A | =D8=A7=D9=84=D8=B1=D8=A7=D8=A8=D8=
=B7: <a style=3D"text-decoration: underline; color: #2585B2;" href=3D"https=
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